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YES! (i would use it)

NO! (i would not use it, and i think it is pointless/unethical/gross etc.)

yes, but i would dissable it if it was an init option (all yes voters are assumed to be for an init option, only vote here if you think it should be included but you would not use it)

[EvilCartyen]

This game also have no reproductive organs. Oh, and creatures breed via magical spores. This is also a fantasy strategy game, not a real life simulation of flowing shit. Go to the toilet and play with your so desired liquid there.

Well, if it's a fantasy-world, I guess toady should stop development now. After all, it's just a fantasy game, so why expand and detail on how the world works?

Fantasy shouldn't be a cheap get-out of making things non-sensical. If anything, DF makes more sense than most games and I think it should continue and expand on that. It just seems silly that people seem to be so emotionally involved in this particular issue. To the point of denying people who do enjoy realism and complexity the option of having it.

Also, realistic reproduction would be a great addition.

[Pillow_Killer]

You sire, seem to be full of shit.
-edit-
First and foremost - please try to understnad my point ov view.
universally, feces concidered to be taboo. It's just gross and does not really fits the whole high fantasy feel.
concidering staggering amount of people who are seemingly obsessed with including feces into the game, just
kicking the thing in wont really solve anything. As vote(...What the hell. That seems kind of biased against a yes, dont
you think?) playerbase is divided in two. I see absolutely no reason to introduce feces into the game, beside 200-something
odball fece obsessed players screaming about how they want to be able to drown people in their shit.
Unsurprisigly, didnt ToadyOne stated few times that he will not addlike feces or sex into game to keep game kid-friendly

[Vester]

I have no idea why people consider sex less kid-friendly than horrific, limb-ripping violence.

[Pillow_Killer]

Hollywood would be my guess. Thank You, USA.

[SquidgyB]

universally, feces concidered to be taboo

I beg to differ. The fact that nearly half (note I'm not getting into this "biased" argument, that's just silly - let's say it's 50/50 and be done with it, we've had enough of a sample to see how the community feels not to have to argue about majority/minority when it comes down to a 60/40 %age either way) support this feature in some way shows that it is not universally taboo. If you dare look into it, plenty of cultures have a much more open minded approach to poo. Check out Catalonian humour, for example. I've been watching this thread trying not to stick my oar in for some time, but there seems to be some sort of religious zeal with which the "no" voters consider idea blasphemous and wholly un-thinkable.

People who are for the idea have generally asserted that:

- this is not the most important feature ever, we are not suggesting putting bugfixing and future features on hold just to add feces.

- the frequently held jibe that we "just want to throw poo/drown elves in poo" just isn't true - read the many, many posts relating sewage works, infection, and seperate water sources

- as mentioned before, we aren't asking for this to be implemented in place of or before any other feature - people also fully support being able to switch it off, even having it switched off by default.

beside 200-something odball fece obsessed players screaming about how they want to be able to drown people in their shit

Well, that's just name calling. I've covered the fact that most people actually aren't obsessed with throwing poo/drowning creatures in it, but it seems to be a commonly held belief that if you want a working sewage system you must be wrong in the head, somehow...

[Urist McDepravity]

It's just gross and does not really fits the whole high fantasy feel.

Unlike that completely-not-gross vomit cover each second dorf already has. And knee-deep pool of vomit-goo-blood in the fort, near dining table.

[Athmos]

I don't get the stuff about "taboo" anyway.
Dwarf fortress already has vomit, blood, rotting corpse infections, limb-ripping violence, hints of fucking cannibalism ...

But if our dwarfs generated wastes that would need to be evacuated once in a while, instead of covering the ground in a sea of indelible vomit, that would be a shock and the start of the debase of all bearded civilization ?

Come on. Even Gandalf did piss on a tree from time to time.

[Urist McDepravity]

Dwarf fortress already has vomit, blood, rotting corpse infections, limb-ripping violence, hints of fucking cannibalism ...

And dont forget about +kitten leather thong+.

[Cruxador]

universally, feces concidered to be taboo.

Actually, my own research suggests that the vast majority of people produce feces on a daily or near-daily basis.

It's just gross

A matter of opinion. While nobody (so far as I know) is suggesting that it's pleasant, many find it a total non-issue.[/quote]and does not really fits the whole high fantasy feel.[/quote]Dwarf Fortress isn't really high fantasy. It's closest to Sword and Sorcery, I'd say, but it doesn't really fit any conventional subgenre perfectly.

concidering staggering amount of people who are seemingly obsessed with including feces into the game,

I have noticed neither any obsession nor any staggering.

just
kicking the thing in wont really solve anything. As vote(...What the hell. That seems kind of biased against a yes, dont you think?)

You could suggest that the dividing of the yes votes into two categories, effectively making it seem like there are less yesses, is indeed a detriment. But I'd reckon most folks know how to add the two percentages together if the want to see how many total vote yes.

I see absolutely no reason to introduce feces into the game

read some of this (and other) threads. There are plenty of good suggestions tied to this.

Unsurprisigly, didnt ToadyOne stated few times that he will not addlike feces or sex into game to keep game kid-friendly

No, he didn't. I believe he did say once that it wasn't a priority, but of course the scope of what is heavily prioritized is far smaller than the scope of what is eventually planned.

This is a game. A game supposed to be fun. Having to spend my gametme building infrastructure so the shit can flow does not fits into my definition of fun. Go gnaw on your feces somewhere else.

Building infrastructure does fill some people's definition of fun.

This game also have no reproductive organs. Oh, and creatures breed via magical spores. This is also a fantasy strategy game, not a real life simulation of flowing shit. Go to the toilet and play with your so desired liquid there.

To be honest, I'd like it of the breeding by spores was replaced by actual sex, even if it's as simple as two dwarves sharing a square (hopefully in a bed) for a few ticks. It shouldn't really be explicit (not because I think there's something inherently wrong with that, but because it would add almost nothing).

I have no idea why people consider sex less kid-friendly than horrific, limb-ripping violence.

I believe this is the result of an essentially Victorian repression. It reached the states after it was ending on across the pond. Give it another decade or two, and the US should be like Europe in that regard.

Hollywood would be my guess. Thank You, USA.

While Hollywood certainly doesn't encourage healthy attitudes towards sex, they're not exactly huge proponents of censorship either. I'd say their occasionally vulgar attempts at titillation are an outgrowth of their cultural schema, rather than the other way around.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

beside 200-something odball fece obsessed players screaming about how they want to be able to drown people in their shit

Well, that's just name calling. I've covered the fact that most people actually aren't obsessed with throwing poo/drowning creatures in it, but it seems to be a commonly held belief that if you want a working sewage system you must be wrong in the head, somehow...

While I agree with your statement there, it is also undeniable that there have been quite a lot of very immature posts surrounding these threads, showing clearly that there are people within the community all too eager to run around with a turd on a stick, so to speak.

And while I personally find the idea of sewer management quite intriguing, having the chain of "apply magma - slaughter the kittens - murder the elves" extended by "drown it in shit" makes a very dire prospect indeed. While DF is definitely the best game I know, the community here adds a lot to it, with the opportunity to exchange our experiences and have fun together. But if coming here means getting flooded with humor about excrements that would make Freud happy, it is no longer fun for me. Or putting it metaphorical - I could enjoy managing it, but I definitely don't want to taste it.

Deathworks

[EvilCartyen]

Hi!

beside 200-something odball fece obsessed players screaming about how they want to be able to drown people in their shit

Well, that's just name calling. I've covered the fact that most people actually aren't obsessed with throwing poo/drowning creatures in it, but it seems to be a commonly held belief that if you want a working sewage system you must be wrong in the head, somehow...

While I agree with your statement there, it is also undeniable that there have been quite a lot of very immature posts surrounding these threads, showing clearly that there are people within the community all too eager to run around with a turd on a stick, so to speak.

And while I personally find the idea of sewer management quite intriguing, having the chain of "apply magma - slaughter the kittens - murder the elves" extended by "drown it in shit" makes a very dire prospect indeed. While DF is definitely the best game I know, the community here adds a lot to it, with the opportunity to exchange our experiences and have fun together. But if coming here means getting flooded with humor about excrements that would make Freud happy, it is no longer fun for me. Or putting it metaphorical - I could enjoy managing it, but I definitely don't want to taste it.

Deathworks

Oh, I completely agree with this - the prospect of being flooded, as it were, with immaturity regarding waste-management is not something to look forward to. But then that is a problem of some people in the community being immature and annoying, not a problem of the inclusion of waste-management being an inherently bad idea.

I think the real question should be 'does it make the game better?'. And the answer, in my mind, would be that yes - given a decent implementation, I believe it would make the game better, and thus I wish for it to eventually be included.

As for what it would do to the forum, well, I already find the kill-the-elves/slaughter-the-kittens/apply-magma posts annoying, I don't think it would be terribly difficult to sigh an extra time whenever I met someone applying the same annoying meme-esque thinking to sewage. And perhaps something could be done with a little bit more forum-discipline.

Besides, if the greatest computational obstacle to sewage was overcome, namely the 'more liquids mixing' problem, people would already be able to drown creatures in vomit, blood, ichor, alcohol etc. In that case, I hardly think sewage would mean much.

[Jimmy]

My biggest turn-off isn't any hang-ups about the idea of poo. I have a 9 month old daughter. I've been up to my elbows in poo on a daily basis and it's ceased to have any impact.

My issue with it lies in the decreased fun for gameplay. Dwarves do three things independently so far: eat, drink and sleep. Other things like going on break and partying are also possible. I don't need them hauling their asses over to the toilet for a two week potty break every season. It would reduce production and slow my fortress.

I'm also against it being in the init. I play vanilla because that's how the developer envisions his game is best enjoyed. If it, god forbid, did become default I would put up with it because that's how Toady wants the game. It's the same reason I don't disable my dwarves eating, drinking or sleeping.

But I don't want it. And I hope sincerely it's not added.

[lucusLoC]

@Zangi & DFPongo

i have already addressed your concerns multiple times, please stop making straw man arguments. if you still have an issue address one of my previous points. if you need help figuring out what those are i will be happy to lay it out for you again.

@Cruxador

it seems that some people just don't want it, no matter what. you could list a million interesting things that waste management brings to the game, and they will still say "it has nothing to offer." i guess for them it really does not.

@deathworks

how is that going to be any different than the

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

tentacle demons

? there is already a lot of very questionable things in the game, and while there are a few immature people on the forums i am sure that after a bit they will pretty much keep to their own threads, just as they do now. it is just a matte of letting people know what is acceptable, and hounding the people who don't get it, just like we do now. the df forums are one of the best on the web, i think we can handle poo without much trouble.

[Hairywoodenleg]

I'm also against it being in the init. I play vanilla because that's how the developer envisions his game is best enjoyed. If it, god forbid, did become default I would put up with it because that's how Toady wants the game. It's the same reason I don't disable my dwarves eating, drinking or sleeping.

But I don't want it. And I hope sincerely it's not added.

Toady wants the game to be what each individual player wants it to be, or so it seems with all the init options and moddable raw-files. "To add beards, put square brackets around the following".

The feces could be off by default, as has been suggested. You see, when I started playing DF 40d about a year ago, it was already hard enough to learn how to not die by starvation or goblin ambushers. Now the new players have the same problems plus more complex healthcare, military and gremlins pulling their levers. In a couple of years, there'll be also be contagious diseases, fortress subgroups such as religions arguing with each other and demanding you to build shrines to whatever blob of goo they are worshipping, complex diplomacy and trade, artifacts that can set your whole fort in fire, improved sieges and, perhaps, feces. It is inevitable that some new features will be off by default or this game will be impossible for new players to learn.

Experienced players can always edit their init file to get more challenge. Newbies don't know what to change to make it easy enough to learn basics.

One strange thing in this thread is how all these zealots on their crusade against poop quote Toady the Great saying "there shall be no shit" but noone has has a link there. I couldn't find it with search.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

LucusLoC: I think the comparison you brought up is not what I meant. I am not concerned about questionable content per se. I am also not against people having fun and joking on the forums (granted, I may sometimes come over as a tad stiff (^_^;; ). The problem I have is that waste can quite easily become another variant of magma in as far as no matter what the topic is, someone will say "apply magma/feces" and believe that that in itself makes for a good joke. And feces being used as humor in and of themselves is something I know from either the most immature humor in manga for 7 year old boys or maybe in certain adult themed items where another dimension is added to this. While I am not too fond of it, I could live with the latter, but if you look through what those "humorous" people in these threads have posted, I am afraid that the spirit in that humor is the former. And having that pop up everywhere (just see magma for the comparison) would be really annoying for me.

To be honest, "poop" or "poo" as a term itself is something I feel rather uncomfortable with, as it sounds extremely childish.

Hairywoodenleg: I agree with you on Toady One's feelings towards the game. However, I can also see the argument of vanilla fans who want to use the default settings, which are, in a way, a suggestion/recommendation.

I also agree think that having it deactivated as a default is an option that may even be not that improbable, given how contested it has been even for Toady One.

As for his statement, all I know is that someone mentioned (and I think quoted) that Toady One required it to be done in a tasteful way.

General: Let me stress again that I do consider it an interesting addition that makes sense for the game and would be an enrichment. It is just that I feel the damage that will be done in its environment outweighs the benefit in that case.

Deathworks