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YES! (i would use it)

NO! (i would not use it, and i think it is pointless/unethical/gross etc.)

yes, but i would dissable it if it was an init option (all yes voters are assumed to be for an init option, only vote here if you think it should be included but you would not use it)

[G-Flex]

Yeah, I just noticed "drown elves in feces" listed as a "pro" in the OP. Baugh.

I'd be totally fine with it as long as it doesn't result in stuff like what you just mentioned (having to micromanage dwarves cleaning it because they're morons), and things like "drown goblins in poop rivers with poop waterfalls inside poop vestibules" aren't really feasible.

[lucusLoC]

there is always the option to change your vote if you change your mind. . .

[Ilmoran]

I vote no because I like these forums and I don't want them flooded with feces humor. The fact that this is about feces specifically rather than general filth makes arguments towards realism suspicious. Half the existing workshops would produce hazardous waste at a much quicker pace than a dwarf's daily poo break.

Right. The fact that people gravitate specifically towards fecal matter is a tad suspicious.

I'd say its probably because more people are familiar with the hazards of going to the bathroom and not washing your hands/having insufficient facilities to go to, than they are with the hazards other activities in DF would produce, because it gives another excuse to have massive projects involving water, and because it's a reasonably solvable problem within the context of DF technology.

[EvilCartyen]

Look, as a pro-waste voter, I find it a little bothersome that people seem to assume that I want to do nasty shit with, well, shit, if it's included. How about not assuming that everyone is a 12 year old? Perhaps some of us just like realism?

Look at it this way - the artificial lighting in the digs is gonna go some day. Making sure everything is properly lit at that point is not gonna be fun. But it's an added complexity. Just as waste disposal (and utilisation) would be. How is that bad?

Some people will find creative ways to be nasty with waste. Just like some people find it amusing to kill their dorfs. Sunt pueri pueri, pueri puerilia tractant.

[Forpl]

I vote no because I like these forums and I don't want them flooded with feces humor. The fact that this is about feces specifically rather than general filth makes arguments towards realism suspicious. Half the existing workshops would produce hazardous waste at a much quicker pace than a dwarf's daily poo break.

Right. The fact that people gravitate specifically towards fecal matter is a tad suspicious.

I'm sure most people here are actually refering to sewage in general, and that it's the title of the thread that makes them (or rather, us) use the term 'feces' instead.

Also, just because those games handled feces and the like poorly doesn't mean that DF will. And as most of DF's features are automized, there's no reason why sewage/feces wouldn't be, too. Once you've got a proper sewer, or perhaps just simple holes in the ground for those who can't be bothered, up and running, that is. So your "It will be too tiresome to handle manually."-argument is flawed.

Either make primitive holes in the ground which you cover up with floors, (but why you would ever do that is beyond me, as there currently is no penalty for stacking things ad infinitum (unless the sewage is handled as a fluid, which would be fitting)), or make a nifty, automized system with pressure plates and such which flushes the contents of your sewage-hole, (or perhaps even interconnected holes (that is to say, a real sewer)) into a bottomless pit, or maybe into the ocean or whatever possible permanent dump-site your fortress is located by, once it reaches a certain level.


(This probably counts as a very minor spoiler) Somebody in another thread gave the suggestion that blood men should spawn in pools of blood, and I think it would be fitting if it were to happen in sewage aswell, as it would both act as a deterrent from using ridiculously simplistic waste disposal systems, and would create some sort of 'low-level' dungeons for adventurers, or even your recruits, to train in.


And lastly I'd like to point out that most, if not all, of the people here support the option to turn it off so those who prefer the regular DF feel can play without it.

[riznar]

If you want waste, vote for waste. This is about shit. Specific waste only leads to the junk that people are already giddy about in this very thread.

Hospitals, kitchens, stills, butcher's shops, etc all produce hazardous waste in normal operation, but no, people want poop to fling at elves.

[G-Flex]

I'm sure most people here are actually refering to sewage in general, and that it's the title of the thread that makes them (or rather, us) use the term 'feces' instead.

Huh? That's what sewage is, primarily. Human waste carried away by water. Other forms of wastewater play a role, sure, but I don't think anybody's talking about the water used when people take baths or wash off a wall.

Also, just because those games handled feces and the like poorly doesn't mean that DF will. And as most of DF's features are automized, there's no reason why sewage/feces wouldn't be, too.

"Those games"? I never referred to any other games.

The fact is that DF (as it is now) does handle stuff like that poorly. Dwarves have always been notoriously bad about cleaning up in one way or another (or caring about this), and they still are. We would also need some kind of better disease model going.

And lastly I'd like to point out that most, if not all, of the people here support the option to turn it off so those who prefer the regular DF feel can play without it.

"You can turn it off!" is a terrible excuse to get out of actually discussing the relative merits of a feature. It still takes time to add a feature to the game, and we should still be talking about why it would or wouldn't be a good idea, what concerns it would create, and what would be necessary for it to work correctly instead of just playing the "make it optional" card.

[DFPongo]

"Look at it this way - the artificial lighting in the digs is gonna go some day. Making sure everything is properly lit at that point is not gonna be fun. But it's an added complexity. Just as waste disposal (and utilisation) would be. How is that bad?
"

That is an interesting argument in favour of including bowel movements and the processing of same in the game.
Of course, as I said, there are infinite features that are not in the game that could be. Reduced vision, due to light, or genetics or age or species is a great example of things that are not in the game that I hope time would be spent on long before dwarf waste.
As to how the nay sayers got the impression that the yay sayers want crap in the game so that they can smear it on their faces or fill this board with stupid stories of what happend with it. Because we have read their posts.
Its like drug use. Ok put it in when everything interesting is already in. Just put an INI setting to turn it off.

[G-Flex]

As to how the nay sayers got the impression that the yay sayers want crap in the game so that they can smear it on their faces or fill this board with stupid stories of what happend with it.

Because I've seen countless posts about stuff like that. Hell, it's in the OP in this thread.

Its like drug use. Ok put it in when everything interesting is already in. Just put an INI setting to turn it off.

This is the worst approach to the question possible. Both of these points are designed to completely curtail any actual discussion of it. After all, why discuss whether or not a feature is actually worthwhile when you can just say "make it optional" and pretend that that makes it good?

[carebear]

I don't think it is pointless/unethical/gross but I don't really care about it either. Meh.

[lucusLoC]

this thread is primarily about poo, but that should not be construed to mean that it excludes other forms of waste and waste handling. waste handling is something we don't have a lot of right now. it is mostly just throwing our trash, not actual waste. this is, ultimately, about adding things to the game like liquid refuse, expanded and modable bodily functions, separate flows, meaningful contaminates etc. as well as how detailed we really want the game to get, and poo is just the most obvious implementation of this. we are getting to that state, but we are not there yet.

[Spreggo]

Not sure if this has been suggested, but why not mod in a custom workshop, Toilet, and have it produce barrels of "waste" which could be  transformed at another workshop, Compostery, preferably out-doors, and worked by a very unfortunate dwarf into manure.

I suppose you'd have to also add dwarves making waste as well, but that would at least be a tasteful/useful way of intergrating waste into the game. You could add compost-able refuse to the mix as well.

 

[Cthulhu]

HAY GUISE I THINK IT'S BEEN A WHOLE WEEK SINCE WE SUGESTED THIS, BETTER SUGETS IT AGAIN I DON'T THINK TODEY HERD US TE LAST 400 TIMES

[Forpl]

I'm pretty sure that the term 'sewage' also entails other forms of waste.

The fact that you're only arguing about something so trivial as my proposal for an option to turn it off only shows that you really don't have any counter-points to the numerous arguments I've already made.

And I'm sorry for the poorly constructed post. I should have mentioned earler in the paragraph that I was referring to DalGren's post, not yours.


Edit: Skip this if you're not interested in stories.

To further add to the point I'm trying to make, I'm going to tell you about one of my friends very first attempt at DF. He was jumping about in adventure mode, trying to decipher all that ascii that so efficiently reaches out through the monitor with a fist full of dwarven might and strangles newcomers to death. He was tossing stones at innocent bypassers and he played with fire for a while until he discovered it has no actual use yet. In adventure mode, anyway.

His first victim would be a female warlord who happened to pass by just as he was learning how to wrestle. I can't recall whether she was disarmed by my friend or if she never wore a weapon to begin with, but my friend seemed to be the obvious victor from the very start.

He broke every joint in her body, and tried to strangle her for what seemed like an eternity. (DF2010) After a while he gave up and began exploring other options instead. Another friend of mine and I showed him how to grab hold of shields and weapons (we showed him this on her clothing because she wasn't armed) to disarm his foes. He then proceeded to yoink off her panties and attempted to strangle her with them, but to no avail, as it's currently not possible to use items to aid in strangulation.  Some turns passed and he ended up dead from a hail of bolts, and so did she, eventually.

The moral of the story here is, as I've expressed before, that simply because it's possible to use features in unbelievably bizarre, perverse, and childish ways doesn't mean that the features should be condemned for it.

[Spreggo]

To be fair, panty-strangling was only used as a final resort.