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Author Topic: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)  (Read 2477 times)

NinjaE8825

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Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« on: April 13, 2010, 01:54:38 pm »

Let's start off with a list of all the sapient civilizations.
We've got the two round-eared, mortal civs; dwarves and humans.
We've got the two pointy-eared, immortal civs; elves and goblins.
We've got kobolds, the skulking civ, who defy easy classification - they have no language, they're hairless. Most reminiscent of goblins, with their glowing eyes and carnivorous diet.
We've also recently got the subterranean *-men; Amphibian Men, Antmen, Batmen, Cave Fish Men, Cave Swallow Men, Olmmen, Reptilemen Serpentmen... IIRC they speak goblin.
Expanding on that last one, we have some critters that are probably sapient but just have no civilization yet, like *-men in earlier versions; tigermen, merfolk, pixies and so on and so forth.
Finally, we have whatever prehistoric civ carved the Mysterious Constructions. We don't know much about them.

Now, dwarves and humans are pretty straightforward. They don't really mess around with magical beings except for gods (and things pretending to be gods).
They might have a common evolutionary ancestor. They might share this ancestor with elves and goblins, but they definitely split off on their own branch at some point (maybe gnomes are related, too).

Goblins and elves, too, are very alike.
They're both pointy-eared, slim, and immortal. And they've both got supernatural backing, goblins in the form of their demon leaders, elves in the form of their close bond to the nature sphere.
I assume the elves have struck a mutual pact of alliance with all natural things - this is why they don't get attacked by animals, and why their ethics forbid the killing of animals or plants (presumably, they live off of berries n' fruits and animals dead from natural causes, like attacking an elf). Maybe they were one species until goblins sided with demons and elves sided with topside? Maybe this proto-species built the Curious Structures (or at least the seals) after digging too deep? In any case, modern elves obviously don't remember all this, only to not trust stuff from underground. Goblin demon leaders
probably remember, but they have no interest in freeing the competition.

Now, skipping kobolds for a moment, the *-men.
Like most stuff underground, the animalmen are demonspawn. (this is also why stuff like giant olms or toads happily attack elven explorers despite their bond with nature)
Animals twisted into humanoid shape are some of the more popular demon shapes; animalmen is what happens when they breed or procreate. (with who, you ask? Humans or goblins, probably)
On a similar note, the forgotten beasts are probably just extremely powerful demons that escaped back when whoever made the Curious Structures first breached Hell.
Maybe titans of the various spheres are divinely-made counterparts?

As for kobolds, who knows? They have traits of both goblins(glowing eyes, bonecarns) and elves(bond with insects).
They are also either incapable of speech, or have transcended their need of it. Maybe they're the common ancestor, driven into hiding by the stuff they unleashed upon the surface world (possibly divine punishment - tower of babel, except worse)? They're about the right size for using shortswords...
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smjjames

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2010, 01:59:50 pm »

Actually, Kobolds do have fur.
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NinjaE8825

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2010, 02:29:05 pm »

?

Are you sure? I just checked the RAWs, and all I could find was wrinkly brown skin.
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smjjames

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 02:34:49 pm »

?

Are you sure? I just checked the RAWs, and all I could find was wrinkly brown skin.

Oh, it was a common belief that Kobolds had fur, I guess its now canon that they are hairless.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2010, 03:42:52 pm »

But do they look like cutebolds? I can't read the numbers in the raws yet.
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NinjaE8825

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2010, 04:00:24 pm »

Nope. They don't.  They've got noses, not snouts, their skins are brown, not gray, and they've got enormous glowing yellow eyes. It should be moddable to mkae them look like cutebolds, however.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2010, 04:02:50 pm »

Quote
Animals twisted into humanoid shape are some of the more popular demon  shapes; animalmen is what happens when they breed or procreate. (with  who, you ask? Humans or goblins, probably)

Um NO? Elves have used animal-man much before the rand-"demons" came into existence. The Rand-"demons" are more a case of space-bunny (its demonic and alien in any way but reminds you of a bunny in some way) then a rabbit classified as smerp (thus called demon while still being a plain animal).

Apart from that we have many "Human" looking titans etc. which after the ops logic would make all the other races (except cutebolds?) spawn of the anthropomorphic titans.


edit:
Spoiler: Disclaimer (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 04:24:28 pm by Heph »
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NinjaE8825

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2010, 04:24:06 pm »

Um NO? Elves have used animal-man much before the rand-"demons" came into existence. The Rand-"demons" are more a case of space-bunny (its demonic and alien in any way but reminds you of a bunny in some way) then a rabbit classified as smerp (thus called demon while still being a plain animal).

Yes, in older versions, the elven Nature Pact included the animalmen. In former versions, they weren't demonspawn. Now, the Nature-friend stuff has no effect either
A: Because they're more intelligent, or
B: Because they're unnatural demonspawn in this version, and thus unaffected by the elves' pact with nature.

Also, I've seen no evidence that demons aren't not supposed to literally look like animals twisted into humanoid form.

Apart from that we have many "Human" looking titans etc. which after the ops logic would make all the other races (except cutebolds?) spawn of the anthropomorphic titans.
Unless we go with the idea that the titans were made as counter to the forgotten demons by the gods.
The gods who probably also created the civilized races.
Also (I haven't run into many titans) are the titans called "humans" or "humanoid"?
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2010, 04:42:53 pm »

Nature-friend still works for Aboveground animals and theyr animal-Men counterparts ;)

The Middle-layer animal-man have nether encountered elves and dont share the nature-spirit connection between elves and AG animal-man. Also if you life underground where is not much to eat, monsters hunting you and something that could be a forgotten beast (aka your elven adventurer) enters your cave what would you do? They also could got tainted by the layers below. Iirc Toady one (the great all hail to him) has mentioned that somewhere on thet FotF-LoRI thread. Grain of salt thought i am to lazy to seek that statement so you cant trust me on that.

The demons of the lower places seem more like born from the nightmares of all the different races since there are some demons down there that resemble humanoid beings too. As such these eldritch horrors carry traits of a multitude of beings and believes. For a animal-man a animal-man with choped of nose may be the same as for us a Human with cut-off hands (namely a demonized thief).

Titans are called Humanoid which are anthropomorphic animals too. The absense of any animal traits on the other hand indicates that they look like our 4 (semi) human races.

There is no evidence either that "Gods" are involved in any way or that demons are indeed animals twisted in humanoid form.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 04:46:05 pm by Heph »
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Sizik

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2010, 05:07:04 pm »

Perhaps, instead of being animal-men, they're actually animal-elves, and they're just called animal-men because the game is "translated" into English (similar to how LOTR is "translated" into English). Under this theory, humans are actually dwarf-"men", and goblins are kobold-"men".
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NinjaE8825

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2010, 05:15:59 pm »

Hm, hadn't considered tiger-men being affected by nature-friend (are there other above-ground animal men?).
That does invalidate that particular theory.

The idea about the deeps removing whatever connection exists between the deep animals and the elf-nature pact makes sense, though. Undead and other sinister biome inhabitants are likewise natural creatures twisted by magic, and those are the only other non-megabeast animals that attack elves.
Hell seems to me like a very dwarven kind of hell. It's made of STONE YOU CAN'T DIG. :O
As for demon appearance, I assumed they only assume bodies of flesh and blood (or ash or whatever) when they're trying to escape, mixing and matching natural creatures because they've been proven to work.

Quote
There is no evidence either that "Gods" are involved in any way or that demons are indeed animals twisted in humanoid form
That's the great thing about gods, isn't  it? :p
And I didn't mean that demons were actual animals, just that when one is described as a giant ankylosaurus made of vomit, or a four-horned goat with a scorpion stinger it's not just because an ankylosaurus or goat is the closest thing to the shape it's taken - it's recognizably an ankylosaurus or goat.
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dreiche2

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2010, 05:23:57 pm »

They also could got tainted by the layers below. Iirc Toady one (the great all hail to him) has mentioned that somewhere on thet FotF-LoRI thread.

Just to say, I also seem to remember something like this.
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Fault

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Re: Theory about the various sapients (HFS spoilers!)
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2010, 05:33:38 pm »

troglodytes have always confused me... they live in the caves, but don't form civs like animalmen do, while they clearly have some form of intelligence (don't they have SLOW_LEARNER?)

Where did they come from?

I like to think that they're either a common ancestor between dwarves and goblins, or that they're the bastard offspring of a dwarf mating with a goblin.