Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Dark Shores]

All of this is moot, of course; nobody is going to arrest a head of state for something this minor--and despite the emotional implications of the crimes, this is very minor compared to what heads of states are actually arrested and incarcerated for.

Minor? On behalf of anyone, anywhere who has ever been sexually molested, I hope that you get raped by a priest and then the Pope covers it up.

I wonder if you'll still feel that it was a minor offence that we needn't trouble the Pope about?

[Zangi]

All of this is moot, of course; nobody is going to arrest a head of state for something this minor--and despite the emotional implications of the crimes, this is very minor compared to what heads of states are actually arrested and incarcerated for.

Minor? On behalf of anyone, anywhere who has ever been sexually molested, I hope that you get raped by a priest and then the Pope covers it up.

I wonder if you'll still feel that it was a minor offence that we needn't trouble the Pope about?

Sadly, it still will stay as such unless world leaders start actively condemning it and putting up the resources to make it happen.
Unlikely that they will, since they are heads of states themselves...

[Bauglir]

Are we doing this "Would you think it was minor if it happened to YOU?" thing again? Seriously, guys, when people say this is minor, they're not talking about how badly people were hurt, they're talking about the scale of it. I'll post this again, since it seems to be necessary.

Y'know, as much as I hate to say so, it really is a minor crime for the purposes of dealing with international law, or crimes against humanity, and what have you. You don't get shit like that coming down on you unless you did something like order priests around the world to molest boys at every opportunity. You have to have done something that will go down in (at least regional) history as one of the greatest tragedies ever committed. As horrifying as it may be that this happened to the kids in question, it's not on that level. Basically, to call it a crime against humanity, humanity at large has to be a victim.

Short version: if you can read through the names of all the victims in an afternoon, it's not a crime against humanity.

Yes, it's wrong and punishment is due. But to argue that crimes against humanity or any form of international law needs to be brought into this is to undermine the importance of those charges. You don't accuse somebody who robs an ATM of 1st degree murder, and you don't accuse somebody who let a children be raped of something on par with the Holocaust. That doesn't mean you excuse them, either, but seriously, show a little respect for the institutions you're talking about.

[woose1]

Just dropping in to say that it's certainly terrible, and a horrible example of the Christian Faith taken advantage of.

[Pathos]

Are we doing this "Would you think it was minor if it happened to YOU?" thing again? Seriously, guys, when people say this is minor, they're not talking about how badly people were hurt, they're talking about the scale of it. I'll post this again, since it seems to be necessary.

Y'know, as much as I hate to say so, it really is a minor crime for the purposes of dealing with international law, or crimes against humanity, and what have you. You don't get shit like that coming down on you unless you did something like order priests around the world to molest boys at every opportunity. You have to have done something that will go down in (at least regional) history as one of the greatest tragedies ever committed. As horrifying as it may be that this happened to the kids in question, it's not on that level. Basically, to call it a crime against humanity, humanity at large has to be a victim.

Short version: if you can read through the names of all the victims in an afternoon, it's not a crime against humanity.

Yes, it's wrong and punishment is due. But to argue that crimes against humanity or any form of international law needs to be brought into this is to undermine the importance of those charges. You don't accuse somebody who robs an ATM of 1st degree murder, and you don't accuse somebody who let a children be raped of something on par with the Holocaust. That doesn't mean you excuse them, either, but seriously, show a little respect for the institutions you're talking about.

From the Wikipedia article on Crime Against Humanity:

Crimes against humanity, as defined by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Explanatory Memorandum, "are particularly odious offences in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy (although the perpetrators need not identify themselves with this policy) or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority. Murder; extermination; torture; rape and political, racial, or religious persecution and other inhumane acts reach the threshold of crimes against humanity only if they are part of a widespread or systematic practice. Isolated inhumane acts of this nature may constitute grave infringements of human rights, or depending on the circumstances, war crimes, but may fall short of falling into the category of crimes under discussion."

The world population of Catholics is estimated to be around 1.1 billion^[1], and if we estimate around 0.01% ( as in, a hundreth of a percent ) has been sexually assaulted by a priest, that brings it to around 100,000 people effected by this regime. Of course, that figure is pure guesswork, but the sexual assault seemed pretty bloody widespread in Ireland and North America - so that figure might be MUCH lower than what it actually is. Oh, and there are around 400,000 Catholic priests in the world^[2] so that figure wouldn't be hard to perpetrate.

It DOES ( according to Wikipedia ) meet all the criteria for a crime against humanity, so yeah...

[Bauglir]

I'm not convinced even of .01%, but if that's the case sure. 100,000 IS starting to push the realm of being plausibly considered a crime against humanity, but my impression was that the number of cases was in the realm of a few thousand. If your numbers turn out to be accurate, I can see a case being made (I, personally, don't think it'd be quite widespread enough even so, but at that point it's probably a matter of opinion, and I have a very high bar for what constitutes a crime against humanity for the reasons mentioned before; again, want to make clear that I'm not excusing such things, I'm just saying they don't deserve that sort of classification).

[Pathos]

I'm not convinced even of .01%, but if that's the case sure. 100,000 IS starting to push the realm of being plausibly considered a crime against humanity, but my impression was that the number of cases was in the realm of a few thousand. If your numbers turn out to be accurate, I can see a case being made (I, personally, don't think it'd be quite widespread enough even so, but at that point it's probably a matter of opinion, and I have a very high bar for what constitutes a crime against humanity for the reasons mentioned before; again, want to make clear that I'm not excusing such things, I'm just saying they don't deserve that sort of classification).

Numbers don't matter, as long as it's pretty systematic. Hundreds of priests ( tens of priests to multiple boys, even ) would constitute a crime against humanity. According to everything I could find about it, anyway.

[Bauglir]

I'm not convinced even of .01%, but if that's the case sure. 100,000 IS starting to push the realm of being plausibly considered a crime against humanity, but my impression was that the number of cases was in the realm of a few thousand. If your numbers turn out to be accurate, I can see a case being made (I, personally, don't think it'd be quite widespread enough even so, but at that point it's probably a matter of opinion, and I have a very high bar for what constitutes a crime against humanity for the reasons mentioned before; again, want to make clear that I'm not excusing such things, I'm just saying they don't deserve that sort of classification).

Numbers don't matter, as long as it's pretty systematic. Hundreds of priests ( tens of priests to multiple boys, even ) would constitute a crime against humanity. According to everything I could find about it, anyway.

Numbers do matter, though. According to that quote, it's widespread. The systematic aspect of it is arguable; the cover-up WAS part of his policy, but a reactionary action like that seems to be a slightly less serious offense than the abuse itself, which was certainly not systematic.

[Pathos]

Numbers do matter, though. According to that quote, it's widespread. The systematic aspect of it is arguable; the cover-up WAS part of his policy, but a reactionary action like that seems to be a slightly less serious offense than the abuse itself, which was certainly not systematic.

Note the italics in the original quote.

[Bauglir]

I did, but in the italics it needs to be widespread, and your hypothetical numbers don't cut it for that.

[Pathos]

I did, but in the italics it needs to be widespread, and your hypothetical numbers don't cut it for that.

I don't think you know the implications of the word widespread.

[CJ1145]

Not only does it provide an sort of end to the suffering of tens of thousands of people being sexually abused by priests

Yeah, this is where I had to stop.

You've taken the Catholic Church and turned it into the Fourth Reich. Seriously, you've blown this far out of proportion.

Also, the Vatican City, while small, is that the very least a Principality, and its ruler (the Pope) can make up whatever rules he wants, although if he is doing what is accused (which I'm pretty sure he isn't; Richard Dawkins is as reliable as Sun) it is pretty reprehensible.

And for that matter, I'd like to bring up another crime against humanity. I know many people in schools who are mentally abused by their own teachers because they do not agree with the theory of evolution. They are told they are wrong, that they are stupid, that their own opinion means nothing.

Richard Dawkins should be sent to jail for mentally scarring actions!

[Pathos]

Yeah, this is where I had to stop.

You've taken the Catholic Church and turned it into the Fourth Reich. Seriously, you've blown this far out of proportion.

Also, the Vatican City, while small, is that the very least a Principality, and its ruler (the Pope) can make up whatever rules he wants, although if he is doing what is accused (which I'm pretty sure he isn't; Richard Dawkins is as reliable as Sun) it is pretty reprehensible.

And for that matter, I'd like to bring up another crime against humanity. I know many people in schools who are mentally abused by their own teachers because they do not agree with the theory of evolution. They are told they are wrong, that they are stupid, that their own opinion means nothing.

Richard Dawkins should be sent to jail for mentally scarring actions!

First off, you're an idiot. I'm sorry, but you are. I can't really address anything in your post, because it's all been addressed before and I'm lazy.

Before you rant off on how Richard Dawkins is a terrible person etc etc, try and remember some of us have been taught by Creationist teachers and so, despite a personal dislike towards Richard Dawkins, we can respect that he is entirely correct on this.

[Mishy]

I think there is a degree of misguided hatred and anger thats fueling the 'attack'(term used loosely) on catholicism (im mainly talking about the UK paying for hosting the pope).
'Everyone' is pissed off at extreme muslims and their invasion of the UK. They cant do shit about it on fear of being non politically correct and fueling further terrorist acts.
Said people need a release of this anger so they are attacking one of the main groups, without any kind of fear of violence. They can actually get away with it with no fear of consequence.

Keep in mind that this is an armchair opinion, maybe even an uneducated one, and i have done no research what so every to support my idea. Its just the first thing that came into my head when a friend told me why i should sign his petition (and yeah, i signed it but just to spite catholics).

[Bauglir]

I did, but in the italics it needs to be widespread, and your hypothetical numbers don't cut it for that.

I don't think you know the implications of the word widespread.

I don't think 100,000 people out of 6,500,000,000 is widespread, sorry.

Also, Dawkins is the poster child of "You're not wrong, you're just an asshole."