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[Diablous]

Pathfinding fixes! Yes! Loving the rapid-fire bugfixes.

[cdawg]

i think we can all agree that toady RULES!!! HE RULES!!!!!! the new version is AMAZING, the underground is so cool!! the rapidity of the bugfixes are unbelievable, basically just more evidence that tarn adams is one of the great minds in gaming in our time.  i just hope that the military bugfixes get dealt with next, its really keeping me from getting too involved in the game :\

[Captain Failmore]

Great stuff for this fix.

With regard to the undead, hit-points, etc.:

An approximation of health for all creatures is sensible when you consider the systemic stress and toxicity related effects of cumulative injuries. (See also, crush syndrome, exhaustion related death, etc.) Rather than breaking with the simulation, a hit-point system actually meshes nicely with it when you're considering effects that are too small, too numerous, or too complex to simulate exactly. In living creatures, having minor injuries cause a buildup of a nameless, non-transmissible poison that damages organs might be the best way to simulate that, but the effects wouldn't be much different in practice than an H.P. meter that goes down with any injuries dealt and returns with bed rest.

On top of that, just like now, an H.P. system can be extended to other types of creatures and in other roles. For entities that are made up of a singular body part (blobs, etc.), ones that are animated by some otherworldly and unknowable force (metal men, etc.) and the undead in particular, this is more or less necessary since normal biology simply doesn't apply to them. Being able to 'break' them is the most sensible way of doing this unless you assign them a material or body part that keeps them moving. (In some cases this could be made fluffy. Talismans, magical symbols, a material layer made out of writhing ethereal worms, and so forth could be the animating bits of these creatures.) I strongly suggest that H.P. be made a more permanent feature of the game at least until these kinds of fantastical things are given due polish, and also for the reasons explained above.

Excellent work with this release so far. Looking forward to the next while of updates.

[Untelligent]

Looks good. I hope the general assortment of temperature wonkiness gets fixed next.

It's a shame that the old awesome version numbering system isn't being used anymore, though.

[AbacusWizard]

after everyone in squad dies, squad doesnt disapear from military menu, after you target it in military menu game crashes.

Suggested temporary workaround: don't let everyone in the squad die.


See that lone surviving axedwarf behind enemy lines? We don't leave our people behind!

SAVING PRIVATE URIST

Coming to a fortress near you in Granite 357!

[Footkerchief]

With regard to the undead, hit-points, etc.:

An approximation of health for all creatures is sensible when you consider the systemic stress and toxicity related effects of cumulative injuries. (See also, crush syndrome, exhaustion related death, etc.) Rather than breaking with the simulation, a hit-point system actually meshes nicely with it when you're considering effects that are too small, too numerous, or too complex to simulate exactly. In living creatures, having minor injuries cause a buildup of a nameless, non-transmissible poison that damages organs might be the best way to simulate that, but the effects wouldn't be much different in practice than an H.P. meter that goes down with any injuries dealt and returns with bed rest.

On top of that, just like now, an H.P. system can be extended to other types of creatures and in other roles. For entities that are made up of a singular body part (blobs, etc.), ones that are animated by some otherworldly and unknowable force (metal men, etc.) and the undead in particular, this is more or less necessary since normal biology simply doesn't apply to them. Being able to 'break' them is the most sensible way of doing this unless you assign them a material or body part that keeps them moving.

In case you haven't seen it, G-Flex has a very good thread about the new combat system, and the lack of cumulative effects is one of his main points.  Something vaguely like HP is necessary, yeah, and you don't have to look to exotic syndromes to see why -- the fact that you can fracture a bronze colossus's head (or slash right through a fleshball) an infinite number of times without it falling apart is maybe the single biggest problem with combat, except for the actual bugs of course.

[Duane]

Question: Is it, as always, safe to copy/paste the old init.txt?

[Psieye]

Just tried out a bunch of undead experiments in the arena. Lowering an undead to 0 HP means you don't get kill credit, but that's hardly a worry for most people as they just want them dead anyhow. Of note is that a zombie does not die from having its brain damage - usually that's an insta-kill crit no matter how trivial the actual damage is so long as the brain is affected. You get kill credit on undead by cleaving their body or head off.

Regarding combat balance and the benefit of HP... I don't think HP is necessary for living combatants. What's needed is smart combat decisions made by the AI - after bashing or stabbing away with a blunt or piercing weapon, the opponent gives into pain and has collapsed unconscious. Shouldn't the attacker now immediately start to get auto-aimed attacks at the head? In real life, when your opponent in mortal combat has fallen unconscious, wouldn't you stop attacking randomly and go for a vital area?

On that note, the game needs to better understand what should be a killing blow. If the Heart is torn apart, that should be an insta-kill. Heck, even if it's 'bruised' it should be an insta-kill. There should be some option for killing by crushing the throat (windpipe) or the spine.


Though yes, there needs to be something else for non-living combatants. Bronze Colossus and similar unliving beings could be solved with a "if this body part has been shattered before, a 2nd 'shatter' has an X% chance of destroying it by pulversing into dust. X increases with each failed pulverisation".

Oh well, I'm ranting now. I'm sure Toady has ideas on how to balance combat more, he just needs time which he will put in when he feels more urgent bugs are dealt with.

[Fist_Of_Armok]

Also, what was your old avatar?

I've had a lot of avatars, which one?

The one with the headbanging...pilot of some sort, I think it was. Kinda reminded me of a 40k Servitor.

[Footkerchief]

Oh, yeah, that was a pilot from the amazing space combat sim Freespace 2.

[Naros]

Slight FPS boost with said changes... just slight.  I just saved my fort in .02 and was getting 45-50fps.  This gets 65fps or so.

That better be sarcasm, Mister!

23 to 30% is hardly slight! \o/

[smjjames]

Question: Is it, as always, safe to copy/paste the old init.txt?

I've done this with the Maydays graphics pack updates by just copying the old one, deleting the new one and then pasting so that I can retain the options and settings. Works with the interface.txt (which has the keybindings) as well. I didn't have any issues with it.

As long as you don't mix up inits from a different graphics set, you should be fine.

[Cuchulain]

Actually...

I love the fixes, but I still got a pathfinding bug.

I had a miner stuck in an area, with a clear path up a ramp to food and water. He was hungry and thirsty. He had no job, despite there being lots of other mining designated. So we're not out of the woods yet.

[Andir]

Slight FPS boost with said changes... just slight.  I just saved my fort in .02 and was getting 45-50fps.  This gets 65fps or so.

That better be sarcasm, Mister!

23 to 30% is hardly slight! \o/

I never use sarcasm... ever! 

[Footkerchief]

Actually...

I love the fixes, but I still got a pathfinding bug.

I had a miner stuck in an area, with a clear path up a ramp to food and water. He was hungry and thirsty. He had no job, despite there being lots of other mining designated. So we're not out of the woods yet.

If the problem persists through a save/load, and it's not because you confined him to a burrow or left the ramp unsupported, upload the save to DFFD and post a report.