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[Virtz]

By the way, the reason Stalin ordered to kill all those officers is because he held a grudge against Poland from back in 1920 where the Poles attacked the red army (togethers with the Brits, French, Americans and the white army) and defeated Stalin and captured like 3000 troops and broughty them back to Poland as POWs and most of them died from disease or starved to death. So in my opinion it's totally justified.

What? British, French and Americans? What are you talking about? The only other side in the Russo-Polish war was Ukraine (both Soviet Ukraine and independent Ukraine).

I'd also note that not only military officers (as opposed to common troops) died in Katyń, but also civilian intellectuals and police officers.

[popotam]

By the way, the reason Stalin ordered to kill all those officers is because he held a grudge against Poland from back in 1920 where the Poles attacked the red army (togethers with the Brits, French, Americans and the white army) and defeated Stalin and captured like 3000 troops and broughty them back to Poland as POWs and most of them died from disease or starved to death. So in my opinion it's totally justified.

As a resident of Israel you should be more thoughtful while stating that murdering over 20000 people is 'totally justified'.

Please read more about Polish-Soviet War http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War and about POWs in this war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_of_the_Polish-Soviet_War#Prisoners_of_war

During this war between two countries experiencing great socioeconomic difficulties, and often unable to care for their own populations, the treatment of prisoners of war was far from adequate,[1][2][3] with tens of thousands on both sides, in Russian and Polish camps, dying of communicable diseases. Between 16,000 to 20,000 of Soviet POWs - out of 80,000 - died in Polish camps;[4] and a similar number of Polish POWs - out of about 51,000 - died in Soviet and Lithuanian camps.[3]

Also, read more about Katyń Massacre itself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

[Il Palazzo]

@Vritz: If we're going to be really anal-retentive about this subject, then you should use Polish-Soviet war, instead of Russo-Polish.
I think Stormrage confused/intentionally bundled together all of the conflicts the Soviets fought at the time.
But yeah, that description was not really true to what happened around 1920.
It is, however, rather silly to assume that a pragmatic guy like Stalin had a "grudge" against Poland(even though the POW camps conditions were indeed atrocious). The "let's get rid of the elite to better control the masses" reason seems a better one.

It's kind of ironic that only a short while ago(like months) the Russian government finally chose to acknowledge the Katyn massacre, and talk about it openly, only to see the other side of conversation die.

[smigenboger]

For the sake of respecting the current situation and it's dire news, we should talk about our condolences to Poland, and perhaps discuss how they will be effected.

Lets leave the arguments of people touting opinions about their own misjudgements and instant internet facts for a separate thread.
If a tragedy like this happened in your home country, the last thing you'd want would be adding insult to injury and saying such absurdities like 'they had it commin' for them.'

[ein]

Americans don't get much news about other countries (aside from this silly war) unless we actively search for it. It's nice getting views from other places on this forum.

No kidding. It's really annoying not getting news here.
Except that sometimes PBS will play BBC News.

[Rafal99]

Americans don't get much news about other countries (aside from this silly war) unless we actively search for it. It's nice getting views from other places on this forum.

No kidding. It's really annoying not getting news here.
Except that sometimes PBS will play BBC News.

Well. I was watching CNN yesterday and they were talking a lot about that crash. Unless Americans get different version of CNN than the one we get in Poland from cable TV.

[Rooster]

And I'd like to mention that there's nothing else on TV here.

[Rafal99]

Yeah yeasterday there was absolutely nothing else in all Polish TV stations, today I have seen a few movies, mostly Katyn related.

[Another]

In fact Katyn was officially acknowledged by Soviet Union in 1990 and then never officially denied by Russia. Some high-ranking Russian politicians had indeed expresses their personal opinion of the opposite to the press and never to my knowledge been sued for lies or demoted.

Stalin was indeed a pragmatic and not much of a nationalist - he ordered mass repressions rather indiscriminately. He quite likely could had ordered some additional cruelty at his whim but he mainly targeted all people of some educational and financial backgrounds (called classes at that time, like all educated officers or all wealthy farmers) rather then nationalities.

My condolence to the Poles. I would personally agree to put Putin, Medvedev and a number of Russian parliamentarians and military commanders on a plane and crash it near Krakow as a compensation. Sadly, it wouldn't accomplish anything.

I've heard that the Russian embassies have greatly sped up issuing visas to relatives of the victims. It would be nice if they could permanently cut the amount of involved bureaucracy.

[LegoLord]

I assumed it was the American president too, and I'm not American.

It's kind of been a small worry at the back of my mind.  I didn't assume that it was talking about the American president, but I was worried.

As is, though, this is rather . . . astonishing.  In more than one way.

[Zangi]

I would personally agree to put Putin, Medvedev and a number of Russian parliamentarians and military commanders on a plane and crash it near Krakow as a compensation. Sadly, it wouldn't accomplish anything.

I've heard that the Russian embassies have greatly sped up issuing visas to relatives of the victims. It would be nice if they could permanently cut the amount of involved bureaucracy.

Doesn't make you any better of a person for agreeing to that.

It would be nice if any gov't/embassies issuing visas didn't involve so much bureaucracy.  But they do have a job of screening applicants...  especially with that sort of thinking you got.

[olemars]

Americans don't get much news about other countries (aside from this silly war) unless we actively search for it. It's nice getting views from other places on this forum.

No kidding. It's really annoying not getting news here.
Except that sometimes PBS will play BBC News.

Well. I was watching CNN yesterday and they were talking a lot about that crash. Unless Americans get different version of CNN than the one we get in Poland from cable TV.

There are indeed two editions of CNN, CNN international and CNN US. You can even see the difference on the CNN Website, at the top there's an edition switcher. The two have different priorities on which stories to run and sometimes even the content/spin of the actual story differ...

[Urist McDepravity]

I would personally agree to put Putin, Medvedev and a number of Russian parliamentarians and military commanders on a plane and crash it near Krakow as a compensation. Sadly, it wouldn't accomplish anything.

Using deaths as a reason to express your personal grudge about Putin does not make you a good person at all.

[Pizdzius]

Today we watched the President's Coffin arriving to the palace. It was an amazing "journey". From the farewell in Russia, which made me really touched (both anthems played, the army salutes, Putin's biding farewell), to the last meter of the ride through half of the Warsaw. Arrived at the polish airport, dozens of his friends and important gov. people came to touch the coffin and say bye. Then the coffin went off for the public goodbye, and the tv news played Chopin's funeral march (the most incredible music by him in my opinion) This whole time, all kilometers, there were thousands of people crowded up among the streets, throwing flowers at the coffin truck. It was amazing. I never thought this can happen. If that was a natural death, it would be very different, but he died when fulfilling his duties, in a terrible catastrophe. It's so unfair. :|

[Stargrasper]

Americans don't get much news about other countries (aside from this silly war) unless we actively search for it. It's nice getting views from other places on this forum.

No kidding. It's really annoying not getting news here.
Except that sometimes PBS will play BBC News.

I'm not sure if it's gov't or media...but the forces that be seem to ensure that Americans remain largely naive of the rest of the world.  They seem to try to give just enough information to make us feel informed.

And yes, I am an American.  I didn't assume the thread title was Obama; the thread title just looked like interesting so I read it.  But yeah, it's REALLY hard not to be "self-centered" when we're actively deprived of news and culture of other nations...whether enemy, neutral, and actual ally.