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Poll

Do you think giant trees should appear in DF?

Yes, they would make good additions to the worlds of DF
- 81 (90%)
No, they are abominations that should never appear in DF
- 1 (1.1%)
I don't care about trees
- 4 (4.4%)
I don't care about DF
- 4 (4.4%)

Total Members Voted: 90


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Author Topic: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)  (Read 7017 times)

sphr

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Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« on: April 09, 2010, 01:30:24 am »



Was somewhat inspired by "Animal Justice" that triggered a link to "Avatar the movie".

The idea is to shift the lime light away from the underground mining which is predominantly dwarven, to say allow either something like a colony of elves or just dwarves turned into tree-hugging hippies.



The idea, is to make giant trees, which are not like the normal trees which are just 1 tile entity, but have physical 3D structure in the terrain.  E.g. imagine a whole magma pipe turned into "wood" type of material (when "mined" ) and pull that whole thing half way above ground, (above ground is the tree trunk, those that remains underground are roots).  Then high up, we can have some vertical "branching, using the "wood" type material again, and end with leaves (which may not be visible, but would be interesting if it can become some some sort of semi-persistent farmables).  Those part that remains underground will also have "branches" which are roots. (i.e. the trees will have to be generated during the time stuff like magma pipes are generated)

As a kind of organic dynamics, giant trees lives forever even without water (they just become dormant without any leaves) When there are place to grow leaves and some root part is in contact with water, it will slowly ABSORB the water at the root, and "grow" leaves automatically.  Would be interesting if banches, trunk and root can grow too, but it can be taken that the growth of the giant trees are so slow that it is not detectable in the lifespan of a dwarf. (until the time where terrain changing dynamics like erupting volcano is done, then perhaps actual tree growing can use same dynamics).

What does it enable in-game?

  - Tree-colony style playing
  - When tree trunk/branch/root tiles designated to "mine", it will require "woodcutter" skill instead of "miner" and yields "log" (perhaps a raw kind of wooden block?) Perhaps smoothing/carving should require carpentry skill while engraving should require the "wood crafter" skill?
  - carve/"dig" rooms in large tree trunks (maybe not as large as underground, but you get many levels!), open platforms that extends of edge of tree trunk/branches, linking walkways that links between trees above ground (it is also possible the giant trees which are closeby and have large crowns will have branches that naturally "touch" each other forming natural linking walkways)
  - tree-huggers who are opposed to actually harming the wood can grow their colony by building AROUND the trunk (e.g. a spiral stairway consisting of up/down stairs and open walkway that spirals up the surface of the trunk, and have larger platforms with housing on the branch levels (which have more horizontal "terrain")
  - leaves can be seen as a kind of harvestable wild "plant" by itself, except that it cannot be planted and will always grow some the same region, tied to the tree's nutrition (water intake at the root)
  - Tree roots can be used as a natural water-sink that spans z-levels
  - shift of defense focus : from mainly against "OUTSIDE" and "ABOVE" to "SURFACE" and "BELOW"
  - Although a well hydrated giant tree is somewhat harder to burn, a dehydrated tree or persistent fire sources may become a bad, bad combination.  But since there are around for so long (at least as long as any race or megabeasts or even older), there must be some sort of natural counters.  Could add more to the fire dynamics (I'm out of idea here atm)  If not, the possibility setting the whole tree colony on fire could either provide some glee for some evil dwarf, or woe for some hippie elf (Avatar the movie?).
  - Elves could REALLY be the "natural" "white-cells" of the giant trees, evolved to get rid of the bad thingies that will try to harm the trees.
  - rope ladders? retractable staircase that spans z levels in open space, but can be "drawn up" as if a drawbridge. helps to keep non-flying enemies on the ground away from tree colony during invasion.
  - elevator ? like a bucket in a well, except that it can transport people.  fancy version of rope ladders that can span many more z levels.

Other story-drivens beyond usual dynamics:
  - special anti-tree invasions: e.g. enemies which includes some special task force to set fire at certain important sport: the defenders better get rid of them in time (hmmm.. it seems that I MAY be uncounsciously affected by Avatar the movie)
  - special underground raids that intends to harm important parts of the tree roots (more susceptible to dwarf fortress which digs to expose roots and joins up with surface or some underground carvern with possibility of invading nasties).  Or even let the players themselves harm the giant trees.  (though what is the exact effect of harming roots beyond lessening/limiting leaf growth is not decided atm... maybe won't have effect on anything except leaf growth... even when dying, the giant tree will take so long to die that it could still outlive a dwarvern generation or tree)
  - Giant Tree Spiders!!!!!!
  - more possibilities when magic arc comes in.  Giant Trees like this heavily modifies the "mana" concentration or flow or whatever magical crap.
  - monkey colonies? or giant tree-specific eco-culture (like similar before for carverns)

well, that's most of what I can rem off the top of my head atm. feel free to discuss, criticize, add on.  If we get Toady interested enough, it may come up in some future DF versions. :)

more idea images:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rose

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2010, 01:35:03 am »

to the best of my knowledge, this is planned.
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MaxMan

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2010, 02:50:26 am »

wait.. giant trees?.. He's a elf! GET HIM!!
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Renault

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2010, 03:20:56 am »

This thread seems to EMPOWER ELVES!
SILENCE THE BLASPHEMER IMMEDIATELY!
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immibis

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2010, 03:32:32 am »

But if we had giant trees, we could cut them down!
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If I wanted ramps I would've designated ramps, dammit!

Tarran

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2010, 03:50:10 am »

wait.. giant trees?.. He's a elf! GET HIM!!
This thread seems to EMPOWER ELVES!
SILENCE THE BLASPHEMER IMMEDIATELY!

There's something wrong with the poll though, there are no votes against giant trees... ;D
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Quote from: Phantom
Unknown to most but the insane and the mystics, Tarran is actually Earth itself, as Earth is sentient like that planet in Avatar. Originally Earth used names such as Terra on the internet, but to protect it's identity it changed letters, now becoming the Tarran you know today.
Quote from: Ze Spy
Tarran has the "Tarran Bug", a bug which causes the affected character to repeatedly hit teammates while dual-wielding instead of whatever the hell he is shooting at.

Craftling

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2010, 05:07:30 am »

Stupid question, but if you don't care about DF, why would you be on the forums?
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Chthonic

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2010, 08:51:12 am »

A gigantic tree, collapsed into thousands of charcoal-burnable logs, would be just as good as a magma pipe for fueling a booming metalworking industry.  Raze and burn.  It is dwarfy.
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Atanamis

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2010, 09:32:02 am »

Not trying to end the conversation, just adding details of what has been discussed before. My search seems to indicate that not a lot has been said, so there is a lot to discuss here. Below are what I was able to find.

It is in Toady's plan, specifically this is part of:
Quote
Core88, PROPER ELVES: As with the dwarves, the current elves, especially their sites, suffer from a lack of almost everything. Multi-tile trees, how the druids and the regional forces interact, their relationship with animals and the animal peoples, their dining habits in-game rather than just in world generation...

Some previous discussions:
Wood and Trees, v2.0 - August 10, 2007 (long treatise on trees in general)
   
Flora & Fungi - February 10, 2010
(details about forests)

Elves living in tree cities definitely does seem to be part of Toady's vision of cannibalistic elves though!
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Chthonic

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2010, 11:18:13 am »

Does Toady specify whether his multi-tile trees will be large scale (30 tile-diameter trunk monsters) versus more reasonable 1-2 (maybe 3) tile trunks rising to ~8-9 z-levels high?  I think the OP was specifically talking mega-trees.

Also, no matter the size, multi-tile trees need root systems.
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Pilsu

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2010, 11:47:33 am »

Do elves need to hollow out trees though? It doesn't seem to be in line with their philosophy to rape forests just to make buildings. Such a tree would certainly rot, die and collapse without handwaving like to magic so they're not even worth considering as a build option for other races.

Tents and treehouses seem more likely. Not that I'd mind seeing trees be a bit bigger and meaningful.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 11:54:00 am by Pilsu »
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Julius Clonkus

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2010, 11:58:31 am »

Do elves need to hollow out trees though? It doesn't seem to be in line with their philosophy to rape forests just to make buildings. Such a tree would certainly rot, die and collapse without handwaving like to magic so they're not even worth considering as a build option for other races.

Tents and treehouses seem more likely. Not that I'd mind seeing trees be a bit bigger and meaningful.
If there are natural holes in a tree they'd propably live in there, too. Unless there's a giant tree squirrel inside. And I could totally imagine elves making a spiral-ish ramp around the tree and put their huts on that.
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Holy schist, this thread is mica me sick.
DF Players never truly leave.  They just abandon the fortress for a few years and then reclaim.

sweitx

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2010, 01:44:53 pm »

Do elves need to hollow out trees though? It doesn't seem to be in line with their philosophy to rape forests just to make buildings. Such a tree would certainly rot, die and collapse without handwaving like to magic so they're not even worth considering as a build option for other races.

Tents and treehouses seem more likely. Not that I'd mind seeing trees be a bit bigger and meaningful.

Actually, a tree's circulatory system is near the tree bark (outer perimeter of tree).  A tree can be hollow and still survive (to some extent).
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One of the toads decided to go for a swim in the moat - presumably because he could path through the moat to my dwarves. He is not charging in, just loitering in the moat.

The toad is having a nice relaxing swim.
The goblin mounted on his back, however, is drowning.

Vulkanis

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2010, 02:36:01 pm »

Do elves need to hollow out trees though? It doesn't seem to be in line with their philosophy to rape forests just to make buildings. Such a tree would certainly rot, die and collapse without handwaving like to magic so they're not even worth considering as a build option for other races.

Tents and treehouses seem more likely. Not that I'd mind seeing trees be a bit bigger and meaningful.

We can always just "add" a new tree that elves use specifically to live in, that could be carved out and lived in without "technically" harming nature. But normal trees keep their circulatory systems inside their bark so a tree can still be hollowed out and living to an extent, I'd imagine the tree to have possible smoothed branches so they could be stood on, but they wouldn't have any sort of order to them, considering killing off the branches of a tree and its leaves is like cutting off a fish's gills (sorta) I wouldn't expect elves to make any sort of carvings or contructions on or from the tree.

But if all the elves are in trees then theres no challenge to slaughtering them anymore, All I have to do is hit G select the tree and watch them fry. (not in any seriousness obviously)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2010, 02:45:06 pm by Vulkanis »
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Rowanas

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Re: Giant Trees (with integrated poll)
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2010, 02:39:57 pm »

Elves likely have no worries about hollowing out the dead heartwood, which is mostly useless to trees. But if you dare to cut the living sapwood...
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.
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