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[zagibu]

The data below has been acquired with this simulator: http://node23.net/df_arena_simulator.zip (old version for DF without "About ..." entry on main menu: http://node23.net/df_arena_simulator_old.zip ) and this evaluator: http://node23.net/evaluator-hc.zip Just unzip the simulator package into the main dir of a new df installation, change df_arena_simulator_setup.txt to your likings, start df and run the .exe. The .au3 script is also included, in case you want to modify something (needs AutoIT scripting environment to run/compile). I recommend setting FPS to 0 in df, so that the tests will be as fast as possible. Also, don't change any key bindings, or the simulator might stop working.
Before running the evaluator script, edit it in a text editor and change the $pattern_start variable. Per default, it only counts strikes of "Dwarf 1". If you tested other creatures, or want to count strikes of another dwarf, change this pattern.
The evaluator script reads all "testreport" files and creates statistical data, which can be pasted in the included spreadsheet, for easier evaluation. The first page of the spreadheet represents the old results prior to 0.31.12, and the second page those of 0.31.12. I suggest you copy one of those and make a new page for the overview of your new test.

New data:
green = hit ratio (percentage of blows getting through armor)
yellow = light wounds
orange = medium wounds
red = heavy wounds

	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver hammer	100% 0% 100% 0%	100% 1% 99% 0%	100% 5% 95% 0%	100% 1% 78% 21%	93% 6% 94% 0%	87% 2% 90% 7%
copper hammer	100% 3% 97% 0%	100% 7% 88% 5%	100% 4% 96% 0%	100% 7% 93% 0%	97% 6% 94% 0%	86% 2% 98% 0%
iron hammer	100% 1% 99% 0%	100% 8% 92% 0%	100% 5% 85% 10%	100% 0% 100% 0%	89% 11% 84% 5%	73% 5% 93% 2%
bronze hammer	100% 3% 97% 0%	100% 2% 93% 5%	100% 8% 92% 0%	100% 0% 100% 0%	94% 9% 85% 6%	86% 2% 96% 2%
steel hammer	100% 7% 82% 11%	100% 0% 100% 0%	100% 6% 90% 5%	100% 2% 98% 0%	97% 2% 86% 11%	82% 3% 95% 2%
adamantine hammer	48% 96% 3% 1%	21% 94% 4% 2%	14% 97% 2% 1%	38% 95% 3% 2%	12% 94% 3% 3%	9% 97% 3% 1%
	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver mace	100% 6% 94% 0%	99% 7% 93% 0%	93% 6% 89% 5%	99% 15% 85% 0%	56% 17% 82% 1%	20% 15% 83% 2%
copper mace	100% 4% 96% 0%	94% 16% 80% 4%	92% 2% 88% 10%	100% 7% 93% 0%	52% 26% 72% 2%	20% 14% 84% 2%
iron mace	100% 7% 93% 0%	95% 6% 94% 0%	97% 1% 99% 0%	100% 12% 88% 0%	53% 25% 74% 1%	19% 15% 83% 2%
bronze mace	100% 1% 99% 0%	100% 5% 95% 0%	97% 5% 95% 0%	100% 0% 100% 0%	62% 14% 84% 2%	21% 12% 86% 2%
steel mace	100% 6% 90% 4%	98% 8% 92% 0%	91% 5% 95% 0%	100% 18% 78% 4%	53% 20% 75% 4%	21% 12% 86% 2%
adamantine mace	35% 85% 11% 4%	32% 78% 20% 2%	15% 82% 16% 2%	34% 79% 19% 2%	21% 77% 21% 2%	9% 81% 17% 2%
	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver spear	68% 9% 74% 17%	45% 16% 62% 22%	24% 35% 32% 33%	63% 6% 74% 20%	14% 81% 7% 11%	9% 89% 3% 8%
copper spear	94% 0% 66% 34%	61% 10% 64% 26%	42% 21% 53% 26%	66% 4% 86% 10%	15% 87% 1% 12%	10% 78% 7% 15%
iron spear	100% 0% 4% 96%	99% 0% 13% 87%	25% 59% 13% 28%	66% 20% 23% 57%	15% 89% 1% 9%	8% 96% 0% 4%
bronze spear	100% 0% 68% 32%	100% 0% 42% 58%	29% 42% 13% 45%	70% 14% 35% 52%	17% 86% 4% 11%	8% 76% 15% 8%
steel spear	97% 0% 64% 36%	100% 0% 49% 51%	100% 0% 22% 78%	100% 0% 59% 41%	16% 77% 5% 18%	8% 90% 4% 6%
adamantine spear	98% 0% 22% 78%	100% 0% 21% 79%	100% 0% 13% 87%	98% 0% 31% 69%	100% 0% 23% 77%	2% 80% 10% 10%
	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver sword	11% 40% 17% 42%	6% 65% 0% 35%	5% 86% 6% 8%	9% 62% 12% 26%	6% 68% 4% 28%	3% 58% 8% 33%
copper sword	13% 57% 10% 32%	7% 43% 6% 51%	6% 60% 6% 34%	9% 57% 7% 36%	6% 79% 2% 19%	3% 65% 2% 33%
iron sword	80% 0% 0% 100%	59% 0% 4% 96%	7% 61% 3% 36%	10% 66% 9% 24%	6% 62% 8% 30%	3% 43% 11% 45%
bronze sword	65% 0% 0% 100%	50% 0% 9% 91%	6% 45% 14% 42%	11% 66% 5% 29%	4% 56% 2% 42%	3% 50% 11% 39%
steel sword	98% 0% 7% 93%	97% 0% 0% 100%	85% 0% 6% 94%	98% 0% 0% 100%	5% 73% 5% 22%	3% 57% 15% 27%
adamantine sword	98% 0% 0% 100%	100% 0% 0% 100%	100% 0% 0% 100%	100% 0% 0% 100%	100% 0% 0% 100%	1% 19% 5% 76%
	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver axe	4% 49% 11% 40%	1% 0% 0% 100%	2% 12% 4% 85%	5% 41% 5% 54%	2% 4% 0% 96%	2% 0% 0% 100%
copper axe	3% 64% 2% 33%	2% 0% 7% 93%	2% 0% 0% 100%	3% 37% 0% 62%	1% 0% 0% 100%	2% 0% 0% 100%
iron axe	41% 0% 3% 97%	18% 0% 0% 100%	2% 28% 0% 72%	4% 33% 2% 64%	2% 0% 0% 100%	2% 0% 0% 100%
bronze axe	19% 0% 0% 100%	18% 0% 0% 100%	1% 21% 7% 71%	4% 53% 0% 47%	2% 5% 0% 95%	2% 0% 0% 100%
steel axe	84% 0% 0% 100%	100% 0% 0% 100%	83% 0% 0% 100%	77% 0% 0% 100%	4% 44% 2% 55%	1% 0% 0% 100%
adamantine axe	97% 0% 0% 100%	100% 0% 0% 100%	97% 0% 0% 100%	94% 0% 0% 100%	96% 0% 0% 100%	2% 0% 6% 94%

Unfortunately, the max post size doesn't allow me to post both the new and the old data, so i'll post the old data in my next post below.

[Nobu]

I bet that hammers end up being more useful against undead and non-living things since you can smash them to pieces... once they stop not being destroyable.

[zagibu]

Old data:

	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver hammer	21% 66% 31% 3%	20% 58% 41% 1%	17% 69% 30% 1%	14% 68% 31% 1%	18% 61% 37% 2%	5% 82% 18% 0%
copper hammer	17% 66% 32% 2%	17% 65% 32% 3%	15% 65% 33% 2%	16% 60% 39% 1%	15% 71% 28% 1%	4% 95% 4% 1%
iron hammer	17% 69% 29% 2%	11% 76% 22% 2%	13% 73% 25% 2%	13% 67% 31% 2%	13% 70% 28% 2%	4% 95% 5% 0%
bronze hammer	19% 67% 31% 2%	16% 66% 32% 2%	14% 70% 29% 1%	12% 76% 22% 2%	13% 74% 25% 1%	4% 90% 8% 2%
steel hammer	17% 71% 28% 1%	14% 65% 35% 0%	13% 71% 28% 1%	12% 74% 25% 1%	13% 68% 31% 1%	3% 94% 5% 1%
adamantine hammer	1% 99% 0% 1%	1% 100% 0% 0%	1% 99% 0% 1%	1% 99% 0% 1%	1% 100% 0% 0%	1% 98% 0% 2%
	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver mace	18% 73% 25% 2%	16% 76% 22% 2%	13% 75% 23% 2%	12% 82% 16% 2%	15% 72% 26% 2%	6% 83% 16% 1%
copper mace	14% 84% 14% 2%	12% 75% 22% 3%	13% 73% 25% 2%	11% 77% 22% 1%	12% 79% 19% 2%	5% 83% 16% 1%
iron mace	16% 76% 23% 1%	12% 80% 19% 1%	11% 83% 15% 2%	10% 78% 20% 2%	12% 76% 23% 1%	4% 83% 16% 1%
bronze mace	17% 70% 29% 1%	12% 83% 15% 2%	12% 77% 22% 1%	12% 74% 25% 1%	11% 81% 18% 1%	6% 79% 20% 1%
steel mace	15% 81% 18% 1%	12% 76% 23% 1%	11% 78% 19% 3%	10% 85% 14% 1%	11% 82% 16% 2%	4% 85% 14% 1%
adamantine mace	1% 99% 0% 1%	1% 99% 0% 1%	1% 97% 0% 3%	1% 100% 0% 0%	1% 99% 0% 1%	1% 100% 0% 0%
	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver spear	13% 67% 31% 2%	10% 65% 33% 2%	8% 72% 26% 2%	8% 73% 25% 2%	8% 70% 29% 1%	2% 74% 25% 1%
copper spear	8% 78% 21% 1%	8% 75% 24% 1%	7% 85% 14% 1%	7% 86% 13% 1%	7% 78% 20% 2%	2% 74% 22% 4%
iron spear	98% 0% 94% 6%	9% 63% 34% 3%	8% 72% 26% 2%	6% 83% 14% 3%	6% 86% 13% 1%	1% 77% 21% 2%
bronze spear	99% 0% 100% 0%	98% 0% 100% 0%	99% 0% 100% 0%	7% 74% 25% 1%	6% 85% 13% 2%	2% 68% 32% 0%
steel spear	99% 0% 90% 10%	99% 0% 100% 0%	99% 0% 100% 0%	99% 0% 100% 0%	8% 76% 23% 1%	2% 71% 27% 2%
adamantine spear	99% 1% 99% 0%	99% 0% 100% 0%	99% 0% 100% 0%	99% 0% 100% 0%	99% 0% 100% 0%	1% 71% 26% 3%
	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver sword	3% 59% 23% 18%	9% 74% 17% 9%	3% 65% 19% 16%	3% 70% 17% 13%	3% 55% 27% 18%	1% 32% 46% 22%
copper sword	3% 65% 25% 10%	3% 66% 26% 8%	3% 66% 19% 15%	3% 55% 31% 14%	2% 52% 40% 8%	1% 36% 48% 16%
iron sword	98% 0% 11% 89%	9% 79% 2% 19%	2% 62% 3% 35%	2% 52% 4% 44%	2% 60% 7% 33%	1% 45% 14% 41%
bronze sword	98% 0% 17% 83%	100% 0% 20% 80%	99% 0% 6% 94%	2% 65% 2% 33%	2% 53% 6% 41%	2% 48% 8% 44%
steel sword	98% 0% 3% 97%	100% 0% 10% 90%	98% 4% 15% 81%	100% 0% 2% 98%	2% 50% 3% 47%	1% 43% 5% 52%
adamantine sword	98% 0% 16% 84%	100% 0% 31% 69%	98% 0% 8% 92%	99% 0% 21% 79%	100% 0% 5% 95%	1% 34% 3% 63%
	silver armor	copper armor	iron armor	bronze armor	steel armor	adamantine armor
silver axe	7% 60% 0% 40%	14% 18% 43% 39%	5% 51% 11% 38%	4% 50% 2% 48%	6% 69% 1% 30%	1% 10% 0% 90%
copper axe	5% 58% 6% 36%	4% 63% 0% 37%	4% 50% 2% 48%	4% 44% 0% 56%	4% 62% 3% 35%	1% 11% 2% 87%
iron axe	94% 0% 3% 97%	9% 28% 36% 36%	4% 46% 3% 51%	3% 50% 0% 50%	3% 42% 0% 58%	1% 19% 0% 81%
bronze axe	100% 0% 0% 100%	100% 0% 6% 94%	91% 0% 0% 100%	3% 48% 1% 51%	4% 58% 2% 40%	2% 13% 0% 87%
steel axe	97% 0% 8% 92%	100% 0% 0% 100%	97% 0% 0% 100%	96% 0% 0% 100%	4% 53% 4% 43%	1% 6% 0% 94%
adamantine axe	98% 0% 2% 98%	100% 0% 0% 100%	93% 15% 0% 85%	100% 0% 0% 100%	97% 0% 0% 100%	2% 10% 0% 90%

[Old post:]
I have to revise my remarks about adamantine a bit, it seems that blunt weapons like hammers and maces don't profit from being made of adamantine. Hammerers and macers with steel weapons tend to win.

[Savarin]

Try a slade warhammer, not possible in Dwarf Mode, but absolutely vicious in the arena.

[zagibu]

You are right. Looking at the raws, I noticed its high density. It seems platinum does equally well in warhammers, having a similarly high density.

[bmaczero]

My research collaborates these findings.  I pitted two identical dwarves, one with a steel warhammer, one with adamantine, against each other.  I did four pairs in four seperate rooms.  The steel-wielders won all four.

[zagibu]

It seems to be not quite balanced yet. A bronze-clad platinum-hammer wielder wins almost every time against steel armored dwarves, no matter what weapons they have (except slade hammers, which are even better, of course). Every blow seems to break bone, even through the armor.

[sneakey pete]

Does the whole " steel is 1.33 times better than iron", apply now?

[IronyOwl]

No. Material properties have been completely reworked, and most people aren't really sure which properties do what now.

[Shaostoul]

All I gotta say is looking the modding thread area, there's a community combat balance overhaul, very worth while.

[opsneakie]

Combat seems fine to me as is, but it seems like I'm the only one who thinks so.

Hammers and maces break limbs like they're made of styrofoam.

Swords and axes cut the bad guys into little pieces.

Spears go straight through you and destroy your organs.

I don't get what's wrong with that. Seriously, I'd love it if someone could explain the problem there.

[maanahr]

From what I've seen so far, I'd say one of the problems is actually more AI related; units keep fighting until one side is dead.

In my (limited) experience around my fort so far:
Swords and axes give fast kills.
Hammers can incapacitate enemies quickly, but take a long time to actually kill.
Crossbows can inflict fatal wounds, but it takes a while for the victim to actually die.
Spears presumably the same, haven't really seen those in action much yet.

There isn't really any need to keep bashing or turning your target into a pincushion. It would work better if they would move on once a creature falls unconscious, is rendered harmless or has wounds that are clearly fatal.

From what I've heard, Megabeasts and undead are a separate problem.

[Nikov]

This:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HAMMER_WAR]
[NAME:war hammer:war hammers]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:50:1000:bash:bashes:head:2000]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10:500:pierce:pierces:spike:3000]

Cracks goblin-iron breastplates like eggshells. Try it out for yourself.

[forsaken1111]

It seems to be not quite balanced yet. A bronze-clad platinum-hammer wielder wins almost every time against steel armored dwarves, no matter what weapons they have (except slade hammers, which are even better, of course). Every blow seems to break bone, even through the armor.

Why is this bad?

A platinum hammer would have considerably more force behind it than a steel hammer, assuming one was strong enough to swing it. Bronze is arguably a much better metal for armor than iron and is probably as good as steel, or so close as to make little difference. The platinum hammer, being far denser than steel, is going to shatter armor and bones quite easily.

Seems to be alright to me.


What I want to know is does studding a hammer with a heavier metal change its damage? Adamantine warhammer studded with lead = more damage? Impossible to test in the arena as far as I know.

[Socializator]

From what I've seen so far, I'd say one of the problems is actually more AI related; units keep fighting until one side is dead.

In my (limited) experience around my fort so far:
Swords and axes give fast kills.
Hammers can incapacitate enemies quickly, but take a long time to actually kill.
Crossbows can inflict fatal wounds, but it takes a while for the victim to actually die.
Spears presumably the same, haven't really seen those in action much yet.

There isn't really any need to keep bashing or turning your target into a pincushion. It would work better if they would move on once a creature falls unconscious, is rendered harmless or has wounds that are clearly fatal.

From what I've heard, Megabeasts and undead are a separate problem.

Sir, I think that you hit the nail on the head!

If I imagine what is going on, it looks quite absurd. Enemy got unconscious, with some severe injuries, yet my dwarfs keep bashing him, instead of focusing on that crossbowman who keeps shooting at them...

I assume real battle is not about killing, but about incapacitating the opponents, and that currently, thanks to current AI, is what makes such a difference between axes and hammers.