Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[csebal]

Do blunt weapons benefit from quality multipliers? From what i have heard, those multipliers only really benefit the edged / pointy weapons. If so, then even if default hammers might be comparable to default axes now, maybe even better than them, they are no match for quality axes. Also would be interesting to know how armor quality influences defense against weapons of various quality.

My 3 militia dwarves in exceptional steel armor using similarly good quality steel axes have hacked their way through multiple ambushes by now without taking a scratch. They are not even near legendary in skills, so its not the untouchable legendary terminator syndrome. They have lvl6 axe, lvl4 armor user, lvl2 shield user, lvl8 fighter and lvl1 or 2 dodger. I do believe they picked dodging up during the last ambush that consisted of archers. none of them managed to fire more than two shots, as whenever a militia dorf reached them, the first thing to go was the hand holding the crossbow All the shots were either blocked, or failed to penetrate the armor.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

It looks like bronze armor is uniquely good against hammers, too. It might be worth making bronze greaves and breastplates and steel chain underneath.

[zagibu]

Do blunt weapons benefit from quality multipliers? From what i have heard, those multipliers only really benefit the edged / pointy weapons. If so, then even if default hammers might be comparable to default axes now, maybe even better than them, they are no match for quality axes. Also would be interesting to know how armor quality influences defense against weapons of various quality.

My 3 militia dwarves in exceptional steel armor using similarly good quality steel axes have hacked their way through multiple ambushes by now without taking a scratch. They are not even near legendary in skills, so its not the untouchable legendary terminator syndrome. They have lvl6 axe, lvl4 armor user, lvl2 shield user, lvl8 fighter and lvl1 or 2 dodger. I do believe they picked dodging up during the last ambush that consisted of archers. none of them managed to fire more than two shots, as whenever a militia dorf reached them, the first thing to go was the hand holding the crossbow All the shots were either blocked, or failed to penetrate the armor.

Problem is: you can't choose weapon quality in arena mode.

It looks like bronze armor is uniquely good against hammers, too. It might be worth making bronze greaves and breastplates and steel chain underneath.

The new data shows that bronze armor is actually the second-worst armor against hammers. Are you reading the old data? The green value is percentage of penetration, not percentage of deflection.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

The new data shows that bronze armor is actually the second-worst armor against hammers. Are you reading the old data? The green value is percentage of penetration, not percentage of deflection.

d'oh! yeah, I was reading it backwards (at the "0%"s in the red column)

[Laiska]

And what belongs to what wound severity class?

Thats needs more figuring out.
but here's my thoughts so far:
Critical:
Severed parts - either a kill or severe disability.
any poke to brains. (jamming the skull thru, or bruising em works)
heart has been tore apart! (should kill, but atm it doesnt kill on the spot.)
Mediocre:
Shattered bone
tear apart lungs, gut,stomach, fat, muscle etc. makes the enemy to faint/unable to react on a high reliability.
many tendons (or whatever) have been torn!
major artery in the heart has been torn!
a hit with more than 2 bruising/fracturing/chipping/tear effects.
Minor:
anything else but the bruising the skin hit, it helps the enemy just to get irritate.

now peeps go and figure out how the list should read, these come from 5 fights from arena, so some off the info is missing im sure.

[zagibu]

Seems like a pretty sensible classification so far, thanks.

BTW, adamantine maces take forever to test. I suppose they are much worse than wooden weapons. Actually, in the adamantine hammer tests, the dwarf with the wooden sword usually won. And maces seem to be worse than hammers overall, so...

[zagibu]

Yep, maces ARE worse than hammers (see new data in OP). Also, bronze armor really seems to be worse than copper armor, so at least against blunt weapons, the armor hierarchy is adamantine > steel > iron > copper > bronze > silver, with only adamantine providing okay protection against maces, but not against hammers. As for blunt weapon hierarchy: silver = copper = iron = bronze = steel >>> adamantine.

[Urist Imiknorris]

You can't make silver armor.

[forsaken1111]

You can't make silver armor.

Not normally no, pretty sure they're doing arena testing where you can make any material into armor/weapons.

[zagibu]

You can't make silver armor.

Hah, I wasn't even aware of this. Thought you could make armor from any material you could make weapons from. Has this changed or was it always like that (I've never felt like actually producing silver armor in any of my fortresses). The wiki also implies you can make armor from silver on the armor page (but I have checked in-game, and it's true that you can't in v0.31.12).

[Alastar]

In my less formal tests, there appeared to be differences in the materials for blunt weapons but no clear hierarchy. Density becomes more important as armor increases, toughness against lightly armoured  or naked opponents. So a steel mace would be a general purpose weapon, a silver warhammer would be a dedicated can opener.

With projectiles, it appears to be more or less the other way round - steel is always too light, but bronze and copper seem good against armor, silver against flesh.

[zagibu]

Spear data is out, and they, too, have been affected by the changes. The situation is a bit less binary now, so that even spears made from "bad" metals have a fair chance of piercing armor made from "good" metal (e.g. copper spear vs. iron armor: 42%, only steel and adamantine armor seem to protect universally well). Steel and adamantine spears still pierce everything except armor made from their own material or better. Iron armor now works against bronze spears, and is overall better than bronze armor in spearfights. Copper armor is sometimes better (against silver spears) and sometimes worse (against iron spears) than bronze armor.

I guess steel armor has become a necessity again.

In my less formal tests, there appeared to be differences in the materials for blunt weapons but no clear hierarchy. Density becomes more important as armor increases, toughness against lightly armoured  or naked opponents. So a steel mace would be a general purpose weapon, a silver warhammer would be a dedicated can opener.

Interesting. Maybe I should also include a round for unarmored victims, although I guess almost all weapons work quite well against those.

[zagibu]

Sword data is here. They have been nerfed. Copper swords are now pretty much blocked by silver armor, bronze swords by iron armor and iron swords are almost identical to bronze swords, except that they penetrate silver armor even better. Iron armor now blocks at least some of the strikes of a steel sword, but only 15%. Adamantine swords remain awesome.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Zagibu --

I'm still confused by the bronze armor / hammer results. Why are there apparently no Yellow or Red wounds at all from bronze, iron, or even steel hammers vs. bronze armor, but 100% green and 100% orange results? Does this mean that a hammer hitting bronze armor will automatically break a limb but will never kill the dwarf, or . . .?

[zagibu]

Green is just the hit ratio, it means how many hits got through the armor. So, 80% HR means 4 of 5 hits got through, and one was deflected. The wound severity classes are an attempt to rate the damage of those hits that got through. It's a pretty arbitrary classification at the moment, for I have asked the community during the first tests to come up with a desired classification, but got no answer, so I've tried to classify them myself (if I remember correctly, severed limbs and cut arteries are heavy, broken bones and damaged organs are medium and everything else is light). All wound severity percentages (yellow, orange and red) signify how many of the inflicted wounds below to the respecting category. So, for hammers against bronze armors, the green number means that (except for adamantine hammers), none of the hits were completely deflected by the armor (so all did damage), and almost all blows were of medium severity.

I plan to analyse the wound severity more accurately later. I only pasted the new results into the same spreadsheet to make them directly comparable to the old results. Take all current wound severity classifications with a grain of salt.