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[Aquillion]

This has been suggested many times before, I think, but maybe now's another good time to bring it up...  with metals potentially limited, perhaps uses for wood, stone, and bone should be expanded, so low-metal fortresses can put together at least some defenses on the cheap?

Wikipedia has an article that covers some simple ancient weapons that don't require metal.

Wooden spears are simple enough to make.  Bone or flint spears, too (well, they're really a bone or flint spearhead on a wooden stick, but you know.)  Flint arrows ought exist, too, come to think of it.

Perhaps crude clubs?  Wooden maces?  

Some people have suggested glass weapons, but those would probably be novelties more than actual weapons...  they'd shatter the first time they get parried or blocked, so you couldn't really count on even landing one hit with them.

Stone anvils are at least theoretically usable.  They'd impose a penalty, I would expect, but you would at least be able to use one if you had to to keep your fortress from dying off.

Stone axes certainly existed, although you'd usually need wood for the handle.  Maybe there could be a 'sharp rock' object that could substitute for an axe when nothing else is available...  sharp rocks could be created by craftdwarves and used to make other stone-based weapons.  This would be a cumbersome production process, but it's supposed to be.

Slings and darts are also listed as common ancient-world weapons, and frequently used by hunters.  Of course, this is a bit unnecessary in DF, since crossbows can be made out of bones...  but slings would basically never run out of ammo, I guess, since rocks are everywhere and dwarves could easily grab more.

A pick, that most vital item in any fortress, is quite a bit harder...  I can't find anything on prehistoric pickaxes except one mention of using deer horn from Wikipedia, which is tagged with a 'citation needed' tag.  Oh well...  I guess some things really will require metal.

If your dwarves have no picks at all and are ordered to mine, though...  what about this?  Much like starving dwarves hunting for vermin, they come up with something.  If metal weapons are available, they try and mine with those.  If not, they hit the wall with stones or try scratching at it with their fingernails to try and dig very very very sloooowly.

Oh!  But, of course, using poor tools would be an unhappy thought.  What dwarf would want to use a stone anvil, or try to cut down a tree with a sharp rock, or try to dig through solid stone with their fingernails?

[Haedrian]

quote:Maybe there could be a 'sharp rock' object that could substitute for an axe when nothing else is available... sharp rocks could be created by craftdwarves and used to make other stone-based weapons. This would be a cumbersome production process, but it's supposed to be.  

There is already obsidian, which gives you 133% damage (same as steel) which you can make shortswords from.

However, I don't like the whole substitute either. Lets say you DO get the place working with substitutes, then you finally get enough resources. How do you 'upgrade'? Its already hard enough to change weapons/tools ONCE (lock them in ect...) are you expected to take out buildings as well?

Too much hassle, for not enough things.

[Skyrage]

Obsidian is the way to go. Albeit it's an uncommon type of rock, you can still find quite enough of it. I always use obsidian swords for traps.

[Axehilt_VuP]

quote:Originally posted by Haedrian:
<STRONG>However, I don't like the whole substitute either. Lets say you DO get the place working with substitutes, then you finally get enough resources. How do you 'upgrade'? Its already hard enough to change weapons/tools ONCE (lock them in ect...) are you expected to take out buildings as well?</STRONG>

This is bad rationale.

Clearly your issue is that it's irritating to upgrade dwarves.  Shouldn't we suggest fixing that problem, and not let that limit the ideas that get suggested for the game?

Seems easy enough to have 3 work options for Upgrade Weapon, Tool, and Armor.  When a dwarf gets to these work orders he checks what his current gear is and looks for an upgrade.  If an upgrade is available, he upgrades.  If not, he posts up an error message "No viable upgrade".

Then there would be a mass upgrade order somewhere too.

Alternatively, dwarves could just automatically seek to upgrade their gear (a decision you could disable via standing orders) just as they automatically seek food/drink/bed.  Seems like that kind of thing should be disabled by default in Standing Orders, but you're able to turn it on if you desire.

But clearly this issue is entirely separate from wanting Wood, Stone, and Bone substitutes.

[Haedrian]

quote:Originally posted by Skyrage:
<STRONG>Obsidian is the way to go. Albeit it's an uncommon type of rock, you can still find quite enough of it. I always use obsidian swords for traps.</STRONG>

If you tap the magma and end up with a flood, you'll have more then enough of it

[Sappho]

What about gems? Diamonds are much harder than stone and ought to be able to be used for all sorts of finely crafted weapons and tools, albeit expensive ones.  Of course, I'm not sure how it is that jeweler dwarves cut diamonds to begin with, but I'm willing to let that slide if it means a diamond pickaxe!

[Silveron]

The current magma flood yielding obsidian is one time only. New version... who  knows how it will work. There has been a lot of discussion on what will cause the magma to cool but no 100% commitments made by Toady.

Myself I would like to see some material substitutions with a hefty penalty. Wood weapons could even dual purpose as training weapons.

[Ilmuri]

quote:Originally posted by Silveron:
<STRONG>Myself I would like to see some material substitutions with a hefty penalty. Wood weapons could even dual purpose as training weapons.</STRONG>

I'd imagine a sturdy (quarter?)staff being able to crack skulls without much difficulty.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Aquillion:Some people have suggested glass weapons, but those would probably be novelties more than actual weapons...  they'd shatter the first time they get parried or blocked, so you couldn't really count on even landing one hit with them.

Not quite true. Humans throughout history have used glass tools and weapons. Fractured obsidian is something like 200 times sharper than surgical steel. Its true that a glass blade would shatter against stone or metal. But that is assuming that your opponent HAS armour in the first place.

There was a weapon used by the aztecs, or maybe it was the mayans my history is fuzzy. It is at base, a wooden club with slots in it. The user would jam blades of obsidian or other rock into the slots. Against the spanish the blades shattered against the metal breastplates they wore. However there are uncomfirmed accounts of such weapons decapitating a horse. Considering that obsidian tipped spears were regularly used to kill mammoths i find that somewhat believable.

Tempered glass is also many times stronger than normal and would make a good mace.

[Mechanoid]

Having alot of substitutions, even if they were all at 50% ability (or even less?) would prove to be a very good idea, as it enlarges the base of the tech tree -- which means that there are more places to start from. Example:

You start with 7 unskilled and unequiped dwarves. You take 5 of them and tell them to gather plants, while the other 2 become recruits and increase their wrestling level. Once the two dwarves reach "Wrestler" they go out and kill an animal. The dwarves butcher the creature, and make a bone pick. Starting at a talc wall, the dwarves dig it out to get stone which can be used to make stone things, mostly stone clubs. The wrestlers get the clubs, and kill more animals. Assuming bone picks will break as they dig through hard rock, several are constructed and a move for flint is made. Flint is found, flint axes are constructed, and the dwarves can now cut down wood. Assuming they're near a river, they can now collect sand and construct glass objects, or metal objects if they've found some while searching for the flint.

All because they were able to make a bone pick from animal bones.  

 

quote:Originally posted by Sappho:
What about gems? Diamonds are much harder than stone and ought to be able to be used for all sorts of finely crafted weapons and tools

Diamond may be the hardest material, but that's the problem. It's so hard it absolutely doesn't deform, and because it doesn't deform, any sufficiently heavy hit will cause the gem to shatter. [Same problem happens with glass; if it doesn't bend, it breaks, where as a metal object would simply bend and deform.]

[ July 30, 2007: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]

[Tamren]

Tempered glass does flex, not much, but more than stone at any rate. The reason it is so strong is the way it is cooled. I forgot how it works exactly but i think the outside glass is under stress as is the inside glass.

These forces oppose each other and that is where the strength of the glass comes from. The problem is as soon as there is any flaw whatsoever in the surface of the glass the forces become uneven and the entire piece of glass explodes into small shards.

That however is a sheet of glass. A smooth brick of tempered glass is VERY hard to break. You would have to resort to a miners pick.

You would think these properties would rule out glass as a weapon material. But against unarmoured target glass is little different than stone, except that glass can hold a sharp edge and be molded to shape instead of worked.

The weapon you have is infinitly better than the one you wish you had  

[Tallim]

The upgrading issue for dwarf equipment should be easy to solve, just check if there is a (same type) object which gives better stats, then switch to that object.

Stands to reason that dwarves should have an inherrent idea of what material a weapon or amour is made or is better.

[Bien]

quote:Originally posted by Mechanoid:
<STRONG>
  Diamond may be the hardest material, but that's the problem. It's so hard it absolutely doesn't deform, and because it doesn't deform, any sufficiently heavy hit will cause the gem to shatter. [Same problem happens with glass; if it doesn't bend, it breaks, where as a metal object would simply bend and deform.]

[ July 30, 2007: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]</STRONG>

So put the diamond on the cutting edges while the rest is metal.

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by Bien:
<STRONG>

So put the diamond on the cutting edges while the rest is metal.</STRONG>

wouldnt work unless the cutting edge was 1 molecule wide.

[Darkchampion]

Alternate material weapons should have a high chance to break when used and almost guaranteed to break when striking armor. Yes obsidian short swords are sharp, but upon striking that goblin's (narrow iron greaves) it should shatter.