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[Baughn]

Size-dependent tile choice can be done (slightly inefficiently) in a shader; tile size is one of the parameters you get to play with.

Show me what it's good for, and I'll optimize it in libgraphics.

[Deon]

What is it good for? Man.

Try to zoom out on ANY tileset. What do you see? Blurry round images. If we could replace creature tiles with smaller versions we could make similar but more recognizable images and even ICONS when everything is zoomed out.

So you could have maximum details when zoomed in, medium details on overview zoom and icons on far zoom. It would be awesome.

Actually, good strategy games do this too, or at least try.

Example: Civilization 4 resizes units when you zoom with a wheel, and when you zoom out it turns cities into icons and map into a flat texture, plus you can see icons representing units; upcoming Elemental turns the world map into "paper" map with drawn images instead of models when you zoom out, etc.

P.S. A crazy idea which could be done using this method: you could (either by swapping images on different zoom levels or certain hotkeys) switch graphics with ASCII without quitting the game, It could be good for planning/quick overview etc.

[Baughn]

I've already got online tileset switching (and renderer switching, actually) in my development code, so it's not actually good for that.

But what I mean is, it already resizes automatically (using lanczos!), and the new tileset format allows you to specify a different default tile size from the actual .png size.

So you can provide a 64x64 tile, set magnification to 0.25, and have the automatic resizing produce a 16x16 tile by default.. while zooming in will still get you higher-quality tiles. I'd like to see that your approach is superior to that, before I add it in.

The actual shader code you'd have to write is pretty much trivial, so it's not really wasted effort if I decide "yes".

[Vince]

Baughn: I think Deon means switching to a different tileset when zooming out and switching back when zooming in,
so we can use icons instead of downscaled graphics when zoomed far out. Like making a 3x3 workshop to a little symbol or something.

Zooming in seems to be covered if you downscale the "fully zoomed in" 64x64/whatever tileset like you said, but switching the tileset here can do some good, too.
We could use "iconized" chests and so on in default view and when we zoom in, we see a super-detailed view like in the mockup I posted (source: unknown by the way).
I doubt every 64x64 tile for maximum zoom level looks good downsized when zoomed out - not because lanczos is bad, but because it is too "natural" and so too indistinguishable from afar. It all becomes a blend of earth colors.
Example: Gems in a rough wall. They would have to be really HUGE and unnatural on the 64x64 tile, so that we see them at all on 16x16.
Example 2: Mason's workshop. default zoom level: like we have it now a bit "iconized", zoomed in: super-detailed, realistic, zoomed out: an icon
http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/7305/newcanvasiz.jpg

But you have most of it already in your code, so: HOORAY!

[Baughn]

OKay, I get the idea.

Still, I'll implement this once there's a tileset capable of demonstrating its usefulness, and not a moment sooner.

The required (fragment) shader code would just be something like this, after all:

Code: [Select]

in vec3 tile; // Don't worry about the 3D-ness of these coordinates. It'll be obvious when you see the full code.
uniform sampler2DArray normal;
uniform sampler2DArray iconic;
===
if (DISP_X <= 8)
  gl_FragColor  = texture(iconic, tile);
else
  gl_FragColor = texture(normal, tile);

(Incidentally, DISP_X is a constant, so the if should get optimized away. Huh. I guess I don't need to implement anything for performance at all, actually...)

[Tormy]

What is it good for? Man.

Try to zoom out on ANY tileset. What do you see? Blurry round images. If we could replace creature tiles with smaller versions we could make similar but more recognizable images and even ICONS when everything is zoomed out.

So you could have maximum details when zoomed in, medium details on overview zoom and icons on far zoom. It would be awesome.

Actually, good strategy games do this too, or at least try.

Example: Civilization 4 resizes units when you zoom with a wheel, and when you zoom out it turns cities into icons and map into a flat texture, plus you can see icons representing units; upcoming Elemental turns the world map into "paper" map with drawn images instead of models when you zoom out, etc.

P.S. A crazy idea which could be done using this method: you could (either by swapping images on different zoom levels or certain hotkeys) switch graphics with ASCII without quitting the game, It could be good for planning/quick overview etc.

Another example -> Elemental - War of Magic [..to be released on aug. 24th]

[Harmonica]

He mentioned Elemental

[Tormy]

He mentioned Elemental

Yeah. 

*edit* Lol heh....Planned release date: Mid-February 2010.

*edit #2* Man I am FUBAR today...I thought you meant that I mentioned Elemental lol........

[Rose]

OKay, I get the idea.

Still, I'll implement this once there's a tileset capable of demonstrating its usefulness, and not a moment sooner.

you mean those 8x8 tilesets?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Actually, since this is a 3D engine... custom mipmaps? At least I think Photoshop gives you the option to provide the images for mipmaps (when saving to DDS) instead of generating them. Can they be non-power-of-2, btw?

[Deon]

Do you mean if I make a tileset with different sizes you will implement it?

Because yeah, my main pont is that beautiful tilesets with many details look ugly when zoomed out and you have to strain your eyes to see what's going on.

If they would be replaced by icons, it would be MUCH easier. So 3 states (max zoom in, medium and max zoom out) would be enough.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Supreme Commander comes to mind. Strategic zoom...  it'd actually be kinda nice if the "strategic view" simplified terrain type visuals and showed the units and buildings as simplified pictograms, with different colors and symbols. Especially if they could be made larger than the normal tile size, so they stick out.

[Harmonica]

The only argument against it right now is that I'm not sure DF really warrants that level of time investment. Rarely do you need to zoom out in order to do anything.

[Vince]

The only argument against it right now is that I'm not sure DF really warrants that level of time investment. Rarely do you need to zoom out in order to do anything.

Viewing megaprojects, planning, using it as a map/for a screenshot...
But right, you won't really PLAY in that perspective.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Only because of lacking mouse support.

Hey, any chance this could interface with the mouse addon project thing? It's somewhere around here too I think.

edit: Yup.