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[Vince]

To be honest - any person that played ANY rpg like chrono trigger should know that using gfx doesn't need 800$ gfx card. It just needs proper coding.

using a newer technique

yeah, this equals more cash, not optimisations and proper coding, usually;/

You can get a card that supports the needed shaders for <100€ (Though you can't upgrade most of the laptops)
Sadly, unless Toady implements it, we can only work around the current limitations - an that would be too CPU heavy, which is why you need shaders.
And to be honest: DF was never a game that went easy on your hardware.

[Robsoie]

So if i understand, those with old cards or just recent but badly done cards (intel) that either do not support or support limited shaders (intel) will have to play in 2D mode.

But then would this mean that those with such cards will not be able to play future DF versions with any graphic sets, as if those graphic sets apparently will have to use shaders, they will then not be properly displayed or just not displayed at all in 2D mode ?

[McBeer]

To be honest - any person that played ANY rpg like chrono trigger should know that using gfx doesn't need 800$ gfx card. It just needs proper coding.

using a newer technique

yeah, this equals more cash, not optimisations and proper coding, usually;/

You can get a card that supports the needed shaders for <100€ (Though you can't upgrade most of the laptops)
Sadly, unless Toady implements it, we can only work around the current limitations - an that would be too CPU heavy, which is why you need shaders.
And to be honest: DF was never a game that went easy on your hardware.

Dude i do not like you;
i saw your moronic comment about buying monitor i other topic and i exactly know your kind;
do not tell me about buying anything, i am in computers for 24 years.

My main problem is, that with 0.12 i AM ABLE to use DF for fort >5 yrs old on my 2 yr old laptop without GFX CARD(because i DO NOT need gfx card with intel chip there - that ridiculous chip beats ALL cards i.e. in tvout handling/movie quality, while device is not made for gaming, it handles everything i need).

Now, when i see method for using dozens of MY tiles in incoming 0.13+, i hear i may buy gfx card for <100 whatever from you, and you seem to miss i am talking about LAPTOP.
My desktop is powerful enough for anything, but i am not going to pay 100$/monht for electricity more, just because some of you are happy with fullblown unknown method of using shaders.

What's my problem:

July Donations:      $3345.83
June Donations:      $2364.29
May Donations:       $3201.62
April Donations:    $16104.49
March Donations:     $4387.99

I assume this is a problem.
Gigantic amount of cash is flowing while all i can see so far is GREAT aspect of game and almost noobish methods for maintaing engine that drives it.
All logical, simple methods for changing gfx aspect is just skipped, all that saves situation is Ironhand, Mayday, and some people that said nothing about real problems related to actual gfx handling aspect so far.
So, Vince, do not tell me to spend 100 bucks for gfx card while i am able to emulate snes on my cellphone.
Do not make another boulder(Dwarvish term) with gfx requirements because it is RI-DI-CU-lous.

So, let Bughn explain to me - what is going to be used in 0.13.

[Ironhand]

Hey, this is my thread and I will not have it become a battleground.
Anyway, I'm not entirely sure why you're fuming. I don't think he meant to insult you.
But I don't want to know. Just knock it off.

Anyway, I'm going to continue to maintain the 2d version of the set as well.
The sets I upload will have a tileset with them even after that's my main goal,
so that everyone can use at least some version of my graphics set if they want to.

So I put new floors under all the creatures and dwarves and stuff...
Also, an orangutan.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[cameron]

i didnt see anything about baughn removing standard mode he is just adding a new mode along side the 30 other current modes and iron hand said he would continue the tile set so there isnt really a problem.

--edit
that orangutan looks suspiciously like the gorilla   

--edit
i feel the orangutan should be grinning   

 __       __
     .__.

[McBeer]

Hey, this is my thread

Sorry for damaging your easy-going-ego, man.

I will not have it become a battleground.

You should be aware how  problematic it is going to be. You craved font thingy just to hear it may be not used like that anymore lately. You lost your time then.
As leading person in gfx modes(let's say..) you should have...info about incoming methods, imho.
You are earning cash for author, man.

But you, guys are trembling before ANY criticism, i found it nonexplainable while so much cash people are paying for...nothing.

No more harassement from me, if you really think i am problem just by asking.
Good luck, Ironhand.

[Marrik]

are the grey lines paved roads and brown ones are dirt?

[Baughn]

Hey, take it easy.

I'm removing nothing. Everything that works now will continue working, and I'm arranging the new graphics setup such that it should be easy to write tilesets that work both with the new and old system, to the point where one that doesn't can be considered broken.

So what's the downside, exactly?

[Sean Mirrsen]

A 7900GS won't cut it? Wait, why do you need to use 3.0 shaders? I, er...  don't quite understand why it would make them so preferable to 2.0+ shaders. 2.0 model shaders are supported by cards as far back as Radeon 9600. Some old PCs that are otherwise adequate for playing DF (with a 2.something GHz single-core and a gig or two of RAM, for example) wouldn't be able to make use of what you're doing. Why go for high-tech? Are the features you're trying to do completely impossible with an older shader model?

[Ironhand]

Yeah. I don't really know what he's on about, either.

But let's let it go.

@Marrik: Yes.

[McBeer]

Hey, take it easy.

I'm removing nothing. Everything that works now will continue working, and I'm arranging the new graphics setup such that it should be easy to write tilesets that work both with the new and old system, to the point where one that doesn't can be considered broken.

So what's the downside, exactly?

None, if i can use freed tiles on noogl mode.
I just got feeling, that we may need ubermachine just for displaying something i saw 20 yrs ago(2d tiles).
Let's name it lack of real info + guys with advices for buying 100$+ gfx card..for...laptops.
Ridiculous ignorance.
Sorry, guys.

Yeah. I don't really know what he's on about, either.

That's clear. minus to respect for ya, dude from my side.
Have fun with water tiles..

[dennislp3]

A 7900GS won't cut it? Wait, why do you need to use 3.0 shaders? I, er...  don't quite understand why it would make them so preferable to 2.0+ shaders. 2.0 model shaders are supported by cards as far back as Radeon 9600. Some old PCs that are otherwise adequate for playing DF (with a 2.something GHz single-core and a gig or two of RAM, for example) wouldn't be able to make use of what you're doing. Why go for high-tech? Are the features you're trying to do completely impossible with an older shader model?

aren't 3.0 shaders more efficient then the 2.0 ones?

[McBeer]

A 7900GS won't cut it? Wait, why do you need to use 3.0 shaders? I, er...  don't quite understand why it would make them so preferable to 2.0+ shaders. 2.0 model shaders are supported by cards as far back as Radeon 9600. Some old PCs that are otherwise adequate for playing DF (with a 2.something GHz single-core and a gig or two of RAM, for example) wouldn't be able to make use of what you're doing. Why go for high-tech? Are the features you're trying to do completely impossible with an older shader model?

aren't 3.0 shaders more efficient then the 2.0 ones?

on gfx CARDS, yes.

[topic unsuscribed, please, ignore me, i do not want to lose my account again just because of ASKING for ANYTHING. Cash fl... show must go on, happiness is mandatory(paranoia)]

[Sean Mirrsen]

What's my problem:

July Donations:      $3345.83
June Donations:      $2364.29
May Donations:       $3201.62
April Donations:    $16104.49
March Donations:     $4387.99

I assume this is a problem.
Gigantic amount of cash is flowing while all i can see so far is GREAT aspect of game and almost noobish methods for maintaing engine that drives it.
All logical, simple methods for changing gfx aspect is just skipped, all that saves situation is Ironhand, Mayday, and some people that said nothing about real problems related to actual gfx handling aspect so far.

I can answer on that one, as can a lot of other people around here. Right now, (lack of) graphics support is what keeps the DF's playerbase from expanding. But graphics were never a central part of this game. Expansion of the playerbase through drastic measures such as graphics engine overhauls will only happen if the support of the playerbase ever becomes insufficient for the developer. Given the numbers you provided, it's still sufficient. Ergo, effort will be spent on improving the game itself, not its looks - which many find quite appealing, I must say.

ninja edit:

A 7900GS won't cut it? Wait, why do you need to use 3.0 shaders? I, er...  don't quite understand why it would make them so preferable to 2.0+ shaders. 2.0 model shaders are supported by cards as far back as Radeon 9600. Some old PCs that are otherwise adequate for playing DF (with a 2.something GHz single-core and a gig or two of RAM, for example) wouldn't be able to make use of what you're doing. Why go for high-tech? Are the features you're trying to do completely impossible with an older shader model?

aren't 3.0 shaders more efficient then the 2.0 ones?

Well, yes. But the question is - are they SO much more efficient that the boost is enough to offset the fact that half the playerbase won't be able to use it at all?

[McBeer]

graphics support is what keeps the DF's playerbase from expanding.

1.
I really know what you are saying;
BUT, i am sure you know what direction DF may take, if it become java-phone-games era users point of interest.
Shallower and shallower way, that is. I can BET, that this is main thing, that makes ASCII fanatics really distanced to gfx matter(it's clearly visible for me on forum).

2.
Remember - FF series could have ok gfx in 16x16's on 3.6 mhz(please, LET cpu have these 2 ghz for pathfinding(and +10 z-levels uncovered), not for <15. y.o. java-games consumers').
That's all.
Maybe in perfect world it is ok to burn 400 watts of energy for 10+ hours gaming, i cannot afford that.

While my whinning is NOT related to IRONHAND job, i would gladly see Ironhand realizing why i posted my outburst here, ego's not needed, really, here

Ergo, effort will be spent on improving the game itself, not its looks

I like your way of explaining things, Sean;
i do know that.
But, there's quite amount of people that need just minimal, normal gfx 2d(TWO D) engine, that was made 25 years ago(tile, palette, assignement, that's all).

Direct2d's enough?