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[shadowclasper]

increasing the density and molar mass of something (like adamantine) makes it heavier right? So that it'll actually BE UNBEATABLE again, right?

[KaelGotDwarves]

We could, for the sake of gameplay, against canon, make adamantine more heavy/dense like it's sister

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

slade

.

At this moment we're testing why bronze appears to be as good or better than iron and steel.

Also thanks for the input above. I will continue to look at hammers and maces.

[Deon]

KaelGotDwarves:
I've tested arrows and bolts and it looks like a size of 150, edge 500 and penetration 12000-15000 is good to make them deadly again. 15000 leads to bolts which always pierce armor of the same material, 12000 has a very low chance to pierce it, so something in between should be good.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Right, we had a lot of material and other modding discussion in IRC which was extremely beneficial.

However, the first course of action which should be done later today when I wake up is temporarily removing near immortal undead from the game.

[tfaal]

Wait, lower contact area makes things less powerful? Then why do my stabs in arena mode seem to penetrate further than my slashes?

[KaelGotDwarves]

They still have deeper penetration values.

There whole "hitpoint" system has been thrown for a loop, combat simply does not work as it used to anymore. The entire combat system was revamped by the material rewrite and it still requires much balancing. That's where we come in.

[KaelGotDwarves]

New version up, more tweaking to weapons. Main change is the removal of undead creatures because skeletal sever-on-breaks is broken and your dwarves will beat on them forever.

[Arrkhal]

Not to toot my own horn too much, but this research I did may help you rebalance the weapons further.  The download thing says the file is unavailable, so I can't look at what values you changed.

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=53196.0

Here's what I settled on from that research, though.

bolt      edge   200   15,000   1,000
arrow      edge   250   12,000   1,000
blowdart      edge   25   1,000   1,000
               
whip      edge   2,000   10   5,000
scourge      edge   2,000   50   4,000
               
large dagger   edge   1,000   1,500   1,000
      edge   200   6,000   1,000
      blunt   250   600   1,000
short sword   edge   2,000   4,000   1,250
      edge   250   8,000   1,000
      blunt   2,000   1,000   1,250
      blunt   250   1,000   1,000
scimitar      edge   3,000   4,000   1,250
      edge   300   6,000   1,000
      blunt   2,000   1,500   1,250
      blunt   250   1,000   1,000
long sword   edge   3,500   6,000   1,500
      edge   300   10,000   1,000
      blunt   2,000   1,500   1,500
      blunt   250   1,000   1,000
2h sword      edge   5,000   8,000   1,750
      edge   350   10,000   1,000
      blunt   2,000   2,000   1,750
      blunt   250   1,000   1,000
               
spear      edge   500   10,000   1,000
      blunt   2,000   2,000   3,000
pike      edge   400   12,000   1,000
      blunt   2,000   2,500   4,000
               
mace      blunt   1,000   4,000   2,000
      blunt   100   5,000   2,000
flail      blunt   1,000   4,000   5,000
      blunt   100   5,000   5,000
morningstar   blunt   1,000   4,000   2,500
      edge   100   6,000   2,500
               
pick      edge   300   8,000   2,000
war hammer   blunt   200   5,000   2,000
      edge   200   8,000   2,000
maul      blunt   750   4,000   2,500
               
battle axe   edge   4,000   6,000   2,000
      blunt   2,000   3,000   2,000
great axe      edge   5,000   10,000   2,500
      blunt   2,000   4,000   2,500
halberd      edge   5,000   12,000   4,000
      edge   300   10,000   1,000
      blunt   2,000   5,000   4,000
               
blowgun      blunt   2,000   500   1,250
bow      blunt   2,000   500   1,250
crossbow      blunt   2,000   1,500   1,250

[KaelGotDwarves]

I'll take a look at those, updated the OP with mediafire link since megaupload link went down too.

[Arrkhal]

Main thing is, I think it would probably be a good idea to cap area at about 5,000 for now.  5,000 seems to be enough to chop a human in half, and increasing it beyond that just seems to make parts fly further after you instakill someone.

I'm working on materials right now, if you want me to share my work later.  It's pretty ugly in there, right now.  Toady used the value for stainless steel for certain criteria for every metal pretty much.

Actually, it looks like the impact strength will need to be recoded at some point.  Impact strength is typically measured in energy rather than pressure.

[Zangi]

Question about raws...
1) Weapon and armor changes are only in the weapon/armor raws right?

2) Did you make changes to the rest?  Or are you including it all for ease of use?  Well, I'm only interested in the weapon/armor changes for now...

Yea, I'm likely to take your changes for my own personal mod.

[KaelGotDwarves]

I have only been uploading the files I've changed. If you only want to apply the weapon fixes, move item_weapon and item_ammo over and edit those. I've been thinking about armor changes (as creatures go from mashed potatoes to tanks with armor) but haven't committed to that until I tweak metal and other material properties first.

You're welcome to use the changes, just cite credit over here. The mod is as much the community's work as mine, as many people have put research into this in IRC.

[Kagus]

I'd just like to interject with something suitably minor for me to make a fuss about it...

Basically, I've been thinking about the bronze colossi and their unbeatable nature.  Well, I thought of a way that would give them a weakness, while being relatively true to the whole idea.

If we dip into Greek mythology for a bit, we find the mythos relating to Talos (which the bronze colossi of DF are almost certainly based off of).  Talos was a giant man of bronze, practically invulnerable to any weapons brought against him.  However, Talos was kept alive by a single vein of "something", which ran from his neck to his ankle, where it was bound shut by a single bronze nail.

There are multiple variations on the story, but in most of them Talos is killed by having that one nail dislodged or ripped out, causing him to essentially bleed dry.


I think that adding in some sort of minor circulatory system for the bronze colossus, with a small "plug" bodypart that acts like an arterial cap, would give them a small weakness that would at least give people a chance to kill the blighters.  Admittedly this plug could be targeted by adventurers and would make colossi much easier for them to deal with, but I still think it's worth considering.

It's funny that there's more than one instance in Greek myth of a so-called "Achilles heel".

[Mayama]

I agree, blade weapons should be deadly against unarmored targets
and blunt weapons the best choice against armored like in reality.
Piercing weapons should pierce through armor and deal alot of damage
(if it hits a vital organ) or almost no damage at all if it cant break
through the armor.
That would really force you to think how you train your army to be
prepared against everything.

Btw cause someone mentioned that blades should pierce through
armor, its almost impossible to break through metal armor with a
blade. The problem is that you would have to break through and
move the metal aside. Thats why they fought with maces and
hammers against knights in medival times. Oh and I almost forgot
blades are usually very hard forget metal types cause that alows
for a thinner edge, however a spear or a sword with a spike to
break through armor is usually forged out of softer metal. The
reason is because a hard forged blade would simply splinter or
break if it hits metal armor. A softer type of metal can compensate
the impact.

[Mephansteras]

Oh, this looks useful! Any objection to me including this stuff in Civilization Forge? With proper credit to the mod, of course.

On the subject of piercing weapons, remember that even if a point doesn't pierce armor it can still have a lot of force behind it that is being directed to a single location. So piercing weapons that don't penetrate should still have a decent chance to bruise/break bones.