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Author Topic: Gold is stiffer than Iron!  (Read 2779 times)

Squirrelloid

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Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« on: April 05, 2010, 04:08:45 pm »

Impact elasticity:
Gold: 600
Iron: 635
Silver: 1080

Seriously, what gives?  What crazy alternate dimension is this?  And why can't we make gold weapons if its so awesome?

Edit: oh yeah, the suggestion - Gold should have similar elasticity to silver, seriously.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 05:13:36 pm »

Steel: 675
Adamantine: 0

Yeah, this looks like a bona fide bug.  Feel free to report it on the tracker.
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G-Flex

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 05:17:34 pm »

This isn't a bug!
Elasticity is not malleability.

Elasticity is the ability for a material to spring back into its original shape without being deformed. Gold is really bad at this, and for adamantine it's pretty much irrelevant. So those values are actually probably fine.


When it comes to how tough it is to bend something in the first place, the YIELD tokens are probably much more relevant.

Adamantine: [BENDING_YIELD:5000000]
Iron: [BENDING_YIELD:130000]
Gold: [BENDING_YIELD:50000]


So basically, it's much easier to bend gold than iron, and when gold is bent, it doesn't spring back. Adamantine doesn't spring back at all, but is so hard to bend in the first place that it's damn near irrelevant. Steel (and to a lesser degree, iron) spring back to their original shapes fairly well. This is all perfectly realistic.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 05:21:26 pm by G-Flex »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 05:21:05 pm »

600 instead of 635 doesn't sound "much easier" to me...
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G-Flex

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 06:13:16 pm »

You're looking at the wrong numbers. "Much easier to bend" comes from BENDING_YIELD, not elasticity.

Granted, there are different elasticities for different types of strain, as well.

For what it's worth, gold has a much, much lower SHEAR/TORSION/TENSILE/BENDING yield than iron does.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 06:59:13 pm »

elasticity is inverse elastic modulus.  Strain = Elasticity * Stress. 

Gold should be > Iron. 

Young's Modulus for gold and silver are pretty close in the real world.  Young's Modulus = tensile elastic modulus = inverse tensile elasticity, which is the only measure i can find real world data for in general. 

Iron is much stiffer than gold or silver.

Steel should be stiffer than iron.

In terms of elasticity, this means Steel < Iron < Gold ~= Silver  should be the actual relationship.

Adamantine is presumably incredibly stiff.  An elasticity of 0 means it does not deform until the yield strength is exceeded.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 12:22:58 pm »

Elasticity might not be working the way you're thinking:

Quote from: Toady One
Right now it'll check the impact elasticity (which I guess is actually impact yield strain or something) of the outer layer, and that'll let it bypass impact fracture after a certain point (while still allowing bruises and ruptures without the layer eg skin actually breaking) even if the force is high enough (as the layer is assumed to have made way for the moving object in a sense).  So if you make a michelin man style creature that's just a purely elastic material, a mace will be unable to harm it unless it has blood flow and can bruise and so on, while relatively inelastic materials like bone will fracture, even through skin.  Skin has a lesser shear fracture than bone on the other hand, so a knife will cut through skin more easily than bone.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 01:14:21 pm »

Elasticity might not be working the way you're thinking:

Quote from: Toady One
Right now it'll check the impact elasticity (which I guess is actually impact yield strain or something) of the outer layer, and that'll let it bypass impact fracture after a certain point (while still allowing bruises and ruptures without the layer eg skin actually breaking) even if the force is high enough (as the layer is assumed to have made way for the moving object in a sense).  So if you make a michelin man style creature that's just a purely elastic material, a mace will be unable to harm it unless it has blood flow and can bruise and so on, while relatively inelastic materials like bone will fracture, even through skin.  Skin has a lesser shear fracture than bone on the other hand, so a knife will cut through skin more easily than bone.

The relative elasticities make no sense, regardless.  I would expect gold and silver to be very similar.  Also, for other elasticities the raws do comment on real world elastic modulus values, which means I probably am thinking about the right thing.

For his purely elastic creature, it should require a high yield and high elasticity to behave like rubber.

I can't parse the term 'impact yield strain'.  Strain is how much a material has deformed under stress (modulated by elasticity).  Yield refers to an amount of stress beyond which the material stops behaving elastically.

It would help if Toady would tell us exactly how the code is treating these values.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 02:28:56 pm »

I wanted to muse about how the game should be handling this.  The following is my best reasoned guess:

-Object is swung at a creature, say a warhammer.  It is swung with some amount of force.  Relevantly, the head of the hammer is moving at some velocity and has some mass.  (Since we can probably assume all hammers in DF have the same volume, we can calculate mass from density).

-The head-velocity achieved by a given creature's swing is a function of the creature's strength and the length of the handle.  Since all hammers are probably the same, strength is the only variable here and there's some constant representing hammer handle length.

-Hammer head makes contact with the target creature.  The quality of the contact is important: a square hit directs all the force of the blow into the target, a glancing blow will only lose a fraction of the force in contact and the swing will continue on.  Presumably, fighter skill and hammer skill are measured against dodge skill to determine the quality of the blow.  (Presumably shield skill also plays a role here, but lets assume no shield).  Consider contact quality to be a variable on (0,1] which multiplies the force of the hammer head to determine transmitted force.

-the transmitted force is not applied instantaneously.  Rather, there is a length of contact between the hammer head and the struck target during which the force is imparted.  All else being equal, a collision with a shorter impact duration will cause more damage.  Ie, it is the _Impulse_ (I) which is important for damage.

-The elasticity of the striking object effects the I.  The more elastic the object is, the longer contact is maintained (and the less elastic the collision is).  Basically, the stress of contact will produce a strain on the hammer head.  During the deformation of the head (ie, strain) and elastic return to the initial shape, contact is maintained.  The less the head deforms, the less time it spends in contact.

-Similarly, the elasticity of the struck object has a similar effect on I.  However, that probably only applies to damage done to that layer – a layer which deforms enough will pass force through no problem, even if it is avoiding damage by deforming.  (So rigid protection is advantageous as far as it stops force from transmitting, whereas flexible materials reduce the damage they take).

-Creatures are now composed of layers.  A given layer should only be damaged if sufficient force is transmitted to it from the impact.

-The force experienced by a layer is dispersed in one of two ways: (1) dispersion of the force across a wider area of the tissue (I think this is the effect of elasticity I describe above), (2) transmitted through the layer to the next layer.

-If you hit a layer at a point, in addition to a compressive loading of force at that point, there will also be a shear loading around that point.  If the layer shears enough that the compressed point contacts the subsequent layer, force is transmitted to the next layer.  Repeat on a layer-by-layer basis. 

-Ok, this is how I think the whole process should work in game:
Initial force hits outer tissue.  Tissue layer has a depth, an elasticity, and yield and fracture points. 
--Step 1: calculate impact strain and shear strain, treating force as stress
--Step 2: if F > Fracture, layer breaks.  If Fracture > F > Yield, layer is bruised
--Step 3: Calculate force transmission
---if layer broke, apply all F to next layer
---else if layer bruised, Fnew = F – (Y*E/Y*E1).  Ie, F in excess of the Yield point passes through unhindered.
---else Fnew = F*E/F*E1
--Step 4: Repeat for next layer

E1 is defined as the elasticity of a material that perfectly transmits force.  So we’re reducing force by the degree to which a material doesn’t deform.

-Remember I said this had to deal with Impulse right, rather than force per se?  Well, I think modeling real behavior using impulse is too complicated for the game engine, because then you have to deal with things like stress-strain elasticity envelopes rather than single elasticity values, and progressive failure at a given load (rather than instantaneous failure).  In general, more elastic materials will suffer more complicated failure modes.  I believe the actual run down is that impulse has to at some point exceed yield strength or fracture point for a relatively inelastic substance (such as bone), but for a softer substance such as skin its total force which is more relevant.  I AM NOT AN EXPERT, however.

-Of course, a better way to do it might be to look at the energy of a strike, since breaking a layer should consume some energy.  But then I think the game is defining the wrong variables.
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G-Flex

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 02:47:32 pm »

Unless I missed something, your post implies that the weapon wielder doesn't actually apply follow-through, and that he simply swings the hammer up to a certain speed and goes limp as it hits. In reality, you're often applying force during contact as well, which is extremely relevant for a lot of things. This is especially true for any kind of stabbing motion.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 02:50:14 pm »

Unless I missed something, your post implies that the weapon wielder doesn't actually apply follow-through, and that he simply swings the hammer up to a certain speed and goes limp as it hits. In reality, you're often applying force during contact as well, which is extremely relevant for a lot of things. This is especially true for any kind of stabbing motion.

So, i was talking specifically about a blunt hit (for which impact elasticity should really matter), rather than a cutting weapon.

You don't really get to add more force during a hammer swing after contact is made - your muscle power's direct force generation is totally insignificant at that point.  Once contact is made its basically done.

I agree that a stabbing hit is going to be a lot more continuous muscle force.  Of course, you don't get to take advantage of the lever action of the handle length either, because you're stabbing rather than arcing in a circle.  (To really illustrate the difference, take a knife and put it against a block of cheese.  Now push.  Now, take a hammer and put it against a block of cheese.  Now push.  Note the hammer does precisely nothing while the knife cuts the cheese.)

Yet more edit:  Impact elasticity should be basically irrelevant for a knife - its applying a shear stress to the tissue layer along its edge, and its experiencing a compressive stress as the blade pushes against the tissue layer and the handle, or a bending stress at any other angle.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2010, 02:54:33 pm by Squirrelloid »
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PencilinHand

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2010, 08:44:58 pm »

From the devlog:
Quote
12/18/2008: 973. The continuing mission. I added some dubious material values to the raws, and the game adds wounds to the tissue layers now, using the material definitions and so on, but they aren't very interesting yet. I should have more interesting descriptions later on, but there are several things left to work out (and I have to change how wrestling/falling/fire/heat/cold/etc. damage work as well).

Here are some of the raw files that have settled down a bit. Even there, various things will change no doubt.
Link to metal raws from post.
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/spoilers/raws-12-18-08/inorganic_metal.txt

The linked values are identical to the current inorganic_metal.txt.

I feel the values need revisiting.
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Rowanas

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2010, 04:48:15 am »

[quote author=Squirrelloid link=topic=53072.msg1141226#msg1141226
You don't really get to add more force during a hammer swing after contact is made - your muscle power's direct force generation is totally insignificant at that point.  Once contact is made its basically done.
[/quote]

Nonsense. Blunt weapons require as much strength post-contact as bladed weapons. It's not as important (if important at all) when the target is an immovable structure (say, a 6 foot thick brick wall), but for objects light enough to move, the follow through is indispensible. For instance, in sports with sticks, follow through is necessary to get the most power out of your swing.
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Squirrelloid

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2010, 05:44:25 am »

Quote from: Squirrelloid link=topic=53072.msg1141226#msg1141226
You don't really get to add more force during a hammer swing after contact is made - your muscle power's direct force generation is totally insignificant at that point.  Once contact is made its basically done.

Nonsense. Blunt weapons require as much strength post-contact as bladed weapons. It's not as important (if important at all) when the target is an immovable structure (say, a 6 foot thick brick wall), but for objects light enough to move, the follow through is indispensible. For instance, in sports with sticks, follow through is necessary to get the most power out of your swing.

What do you mean by follow through?

So, in baseball, not following through means actively pulling back on the swing, because it will naturally follow through otherwise.  (See Newton's laws of motion).  Ie, to avoid follow through, you have to decrease the force.  Following through does not increase force.

What specifically contributing to follow through does is help you guide the path of the hit object, not increase power.

Its hard to distinguish the two while swinging the bat, but its the only description of the physics that makes sense.

A better example might be bowling.  Ignoring friction for a moment, the force moving a ball that is 'dropped' versus one with follow through are identical.  The difference is in the accuracy.  (Now, not following through does decrease the force behind the ball relative to following through very slightly due to the direction of the force of friction, but it is a tiny difference).

It is certainly the case that not following through while swinging a hammer requires that you pull up on the hammer, thus decreasing the force in reality.  But from a physics perspective and a calculation perspective, what you do after the moment of impact has no effect on the force present at the moment of impact, so we while we can't swing a hammer without follow through for accurate results because it causes our pre-impact swing to be different, we are under no obligation to calculate anything about force after impact.  Ie, we're taking a snapshot at the moment of impact - everything relevant about the impact is right there. 

(So yes, follow through is important for power as a person swinging an object, but only because of how it effects your swing before the moment of impact.  You can't fail to follow through with out modifying your swing much earlier).
« Last Edit: April 16, 2010, 06:46:03 am by Squirrelloid »
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Rowanas

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Re: Gold is stiffer than Iron!
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2010, 06:40:39 am »

Hmm, I believe you're right on that. I bow to your assessment of the forces involved.
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