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Author Topic: Migrants are now ridiculous  (Read 6755 times)

ZeroGravitas

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2010, 12:05:37 pm »

I think people are missing the better approach to migrants - tie them to the liaison as you do trade now.

Basically, request what you need in very rough terms - lots of low skilled or a few higher skilled. Tie the amount of influence to your export amount - the more you export, the more you can invest in lots of haulers or more experienced migrants.

Now, I'm not suggesting a direct 'dump points into a grand master armorsmith' and poof he shows up, rather, you tell the liaison what you are in need of and something maybe it that ballpark shows up, and maybe not for some time. But at least you can tell the liaison 'don't have more than x dwarves' or 'can you encourage as many as y dwarves' to show up. Maybe tie it to the negotiator, etc. skills of your leader as well.

not to be rude but . . . another big huge irritating menu that pops up every time a caravan drops by? nooooo!!!!!!

If it were on the same menu with the other stuff it'd be fine.
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Sowelu

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2010, 01:20:34 pm »

I REALLY like the new immigrants.  I agree, though, that naming is a big problem.  The profession names that my dwarves show up as never seems to match what I really want them to do.  I think this is a step in the right direction, though.

If you get a skilled mason/adequate carpenter, well, maybe you don't have many masons and that guy is a great mason.  Or maybe you're like me and realize that you don't have ANY real carpenters.  Or heck, maybe you want to leave him as both!

I would love to see skill become slightly less of a deal than it is now...in which case these immigrants won't break the system.
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Aquillion

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2010, 02:21:01 pm »

I like the wide variety of skills (and the wide variance in skills, with occasional super-skilled dwarves.)  It makes the game more interesting to decide how you're going to use an immigrant with many different unrelated skills.  It's also fun to occasionally get a super-dwarf and have to decide what you're going to have them focus on, or if you're going to build the necessary industry to put their skills to work.

That kind of randomness adds to the game by adding variety -- in different games, you'll get a different assortment of immigrants, and you have to adapt your strategy to them rather than just mechanically doing the same thing every time.  Much better than it was before.
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Stormcrow

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2010, 05:14:37 am »

It still seems silly that migrants aren't tied into all the civilization code Toady wrote. To me, the proper 'Dwarf Fortress' way to handle migrants is to tie it all into the world and word of mouth. Like everything else in the game, it should be simulated to an impressive degree.

1. Caravans (or the occasional expating dwarf) carry news of your fortress with them. This news can be positive (riches, prosperity, military victories, safety), negative (poverty, famine, fortress is a deathtrap), or somewhere in between.

2. Upon reaching any city at all, the news carrier, based on their social stats, their reputations, your pre-existing reputation (if any), and other stats, will impress upon the area a reputation for your fortress. This may be the first time anyone has ever even heard of your settlement, which makes it possible for people to decide to expat to you in the first place.

3. News will automatically travel to nearby settlements as regular people (not just caravans) move from town to town, with possibility of exaggeration and less impact as degrees of separation increase. Non-dwarven cities will carry the news just as well as dwarven cities. If any dwarves happen to be living in a non-dwarven city, they are more likely to migrate.

4. Unskilled migrants will be attracted to any new settlement because they are looking for an opportunity which is not afforded to them by a mature stronghold (where they're merely unneeded laborers). They're less likely to want to move to a well-off city, where their situation is unlikely to change.

5. Skilled migrants will be attracted to better-off strongholds, where their skills might fetch them a higher wage. They won't want to move to a fledgling camp, since the economy isn't likely to be ready for them.

6. Migrants travel in parties/waves for mutual protection. They also come with supplies for the trip, who's worth is determined by the economic status of their place of origin as well as their skills. When/if they arrive at your fortress, their remaining supplies become part of the stronghold stocks if the stronghold is in its socialist economic state (or the economy is turned off) minus any masterpieces they may have. If in a fortress with an economy, the survivors divvy up their items between one another.

7. Distance, intervening terrain, and intervening wildlife between player fortress and immigrant's point of origin plays a large factor in how soon migrants arrive or if they arrive at all. Farther settlements are less likely to stimulate migration due to the dangers posed by such a journey, though great enough reputation will do wonders. Distance and difficult terrain postpone arrival, causing a delay in migrants arriving at your doorstep. All three factors increase the chances of fatality, disease, or disability.

8. There is always a chance of a wandering group encountering your settlement completely by accident.

In action: Your fortress starts in Spring of 1050. By Winter of 1051, a Dwarven caravan arrives and trades goods with you. Summer of 1051, that Caravan arrives at Istam, a Dwarven stronghold, and nine people, mostly peasants hoping for a better life, as well as an artisan and a gem crafter hoping to make names for themselves, start the long, dangerous journey for your new home. They leave with nine backpacks, food, drink, a few weapons, perhaps a pack animal if they are well off.

In Spring of 1052, five migrants make it to your gates: The four peasants and the artist. Along the way, two of the peasants have gained novice skill in hunting. One has gained novice skill in herbalism. The artist has become a dabbling cook. One of the peasants has a dead left arm, though he is alive. The artist has contracted an illness, though your doctor will hopefully be able to nurse him through it.

The other three peasants and the gem crafter perished along the way, a story these immigrants will tell to the dwarves already in your stronghold. In fact, the artist will craft plenty of artwork depicting his journey, just like artists do for anything that happens IN your stronghold.

Doing it like this seems to fit the Dwarf Fortress schema far better than anything else. Your doctors get practice with pre-injured migrants. People playing on a desolate world (or one with few civilizations) get few migrants. People playing on a tiny island get NO migrants. People playing in a deadly, evil-filled world get few migrants, but the ones who survive are going to be armed and strong, as Darwin's law dictates they must be to survive such a trip.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 05:18:17 am by Stormcrow »
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Craftling

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2010, 05:40:38 am »

When I get 8 Cheesemakers in one wave when I have no Death trap, there is something wrong.
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Martin

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2010, 04:59:41 pm »

not to be rude but . . . another big huge irritating menu that pops up every time a caravan drops by? nooooo!!!!!!

It'd only show up with the dwarven diplomat, not every caravan. You think a menu you can simply dismiss is worse than cheesemaker spam?

cdawg

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2010, 02:41:21 am »

i like the variety of skills but i am getting WAY too many dwarves.  my infrastructure can't handle it and i just can't bring myself to kill the little bastards  :-\.  i strongly support the idea that immigration be tied to liaisons/civilizations and have always thought that would make more sense
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Jintor

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 03:01:41 am »

In Spring of 1052, five migrants make it to your gates: The four peasant and the artist. Along the way, two of the peasants have gained novice skill in hunting. One has gained novice skill in herbalism. The artist has become a dabbling cook. One of the peasants has a dead left arm, though he is alive. The artist has contracted an illness, though your doctor will hopefully be able to nurse him through it.

The other three peasants and the gem crafter perished along the way, a story these immigrants will tell to the dwarves already in your stronghold. In fact, the artist will craft plenty of artwork depicting his journey, just like artists do for anything that happens IN your stronghold.

Doing it like this seems to fit the Dwarf Fortress schema far better than anything else. Your doctors get practice with pre-injured migrants. People playing on a desolate world (or one with few civilizations) get few migrants. People playing on a tiny island get NO migrants. People playing in a deadly, evil-filled world get few migrants, but the ones who survive are going to be armed and strong, as Darwin's law dictates they must be to survive such a trip.

You paint a wonderful picture.
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cdawg

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 03:04:23 am »

oh god, i'm not sure whether to look forward with trepidation or amusement at the thought of dwarves showing up with randomly determined injuries.  cheesemakers are bad enough without being paraplegics or quadruple amputees
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Safe-Keeper

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 04:28:00 am »

Quote
oh god, i'm not sure whether to look forward with trepidation or amusement at the thought of dwarves showing up with randomly determined injuries.  cheesemakers are bad enough without being paraplegics or quadruple amputees
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I like what's being written here. How about also a check for unemployment? If dwarves are working hard all the time, that's a sign there's work to be had. If there's a constant problem with idlers, the game takes that to mean you've got enough people as you do, and the chance of attracting migrants is reduced.
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tsen

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2010, 05:45:47 am »

Pilsu makes a very good point with trivialization of industry and opportunity cost.  That said, I think a good solution would be something like:

Urist McLegendary Armorsmith gets smashed by a titan. Rats!
Dwarven caravan shows up, news of the death spreads...
There becomes a random chance for an immigrant armorsmith of random but highish value to show up. If one does, the chance resets to zero.

And it's only a chance--not a guarantee. And would still be tied to exports, negotiation, etc. etc.
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dwarfhoplite

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2011, 09:38:33 am »

support. Player should be thankful rather than annoyed by migrants. they're making the game too easy early in the game
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King DZA

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2011, 05:47:04 pm »

I would definitely love to see more depth put into migrations. However, what I don't want to end up happening is being able to plan out exactly what I'm going to get.

I'm all for tweaking the skills a little bit, but I don't want expect only dwarves with crap skills early on, and then jumpstart my wealth so I get waves of superdwarves.
I don't want to have migrants becoming too predictable, I guess. If I'm able to request which ones I want, then manipulate their numbers and skills using wealth, it will turn more into an exploit than anything else.

On the topic of migration, I hear Toady is planning on adding the ability to have multiracial forts in the future. It would be cool if migrants from other races only showed up if you tailored to their culture(level of development, religion, values, ect.)

drilltooth

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2011, 07:13:28 pm »

the random skills are just part of the fun.. try and think what their story could be. of course, I've been playing the MLP mod lately, and random skills fit that 'verse..

which reminds me, We should ask toady to implement Heraldry for individual notable units as well as groups.
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TantrumTime

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Re: Migrants are now ridiculous
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2011, 12:37:41 am »

Highly skilled migrants need some negative side to balance them. They should demand high quality rooms, and maybe they could refuse to work without their favorite booze, or something.
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