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Author Topic: Fear of falling asleep  (Read 19672 times)

Nivim

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2010, 08:16:32 pm »

It's merely the feeling of, 'this is what it feels like to die' that bothers me so much and keeps me awake.
Going to sleep does not feel like dieing. Freezing to death feels like dieing, even as a painless way, your body screams at you in ways you can't really focus on, and some horrible fear and sureness grips you. In sleep your consciousness is just changing, switching modes to regenerate , in death your consciousness is vanishing.
 I guess it would be a way worse than hallucinogens, but once you know what death feels like, you can't mistake it for anything else.
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Euld

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2010, 08:25:11 pm »

Write a book on the subject?  :o  You've probably done a few pages of material on this forum already.  Writing could help you understand the problem better, or come to terms with it.  You don't necessarily have to worry about the quality of your work either, since it would be for just yourself, but could be used as a book should you want to.

SIGVARDR

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2010, 12:10:36 am »

Death is the final reward of life.Why fear it?
 It is the inevitable time-line by which your acts in this world are set to.Embrace the life you have,and achieve what Greatness you can,for if you Waste Life fearing it's loss,then what was the purpose of this life so cherished as to fear losing it?
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Kebooo

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2010, 12:09:46 pm »

I wouldn't say I waste life fearing death.  Isn't it natural to want to keep what one loves?  Isn't it normal for a man to fear the death of his wife if she has cancer and is going to die in a few months?  I only have a fear of it when I consider what it ultimately entails.  I'd say the average person has a fear of dying.  If someone has a gun pointed at them, they probably feel at least some fear.  If a lion is bearing down on them, they're probably not feeling brave.  That is healthy, we have an innate mechanism to try to stay alive.  My fear is simply caused by being too future-thinking, as if the gun is already pointed at me because time, in retrospect, always seems like it has flown past me.  The idea that every person I know and their lineage will die, along with my memory, my life, none of it to be remembered by anything in the universe, at some point, disturbs me.  Even men like Obama may not ever be thought of a million years from now.  Or ten million, or more.  Assuming humanity is still alive.  And if it isn't, then all our lives are forgotten for all time.  This is the opinion of an atheist, of course.  It's perfectly possible all intelligent life in the universe will cease to exist for all eternity (heat death of the universe) or be killed by a big crunch.  Can anyone view this with anything but disdain?

I don't see an empty void of nothingness as a reward for me.  In fact, I would simply be returning to where I came from.  I was born in 1984, so in 1983, I was in the void.  If such a thing is a reward, why ever take me out of it?  Now that I exist, I care to exist, I love to exist, and I can't relinquish such a thing happily or willingly.  The day I can accept the death of myself and those I love is the day my life doesn't have meaning, the day I accept its fleeting emptiness that is fated to be sucked up into nothingness.  I can't ever accept that, I can't accept the notion that it is proper to be destroyed, snuffed out, for eternity, never to return, never to exist again.  Or else we should all just commit cult suicide right here.  A million years from now it won't have mattered (once again, assuming you don't believe in any higher power).  That thought disturbs no one else?

You could say it matters here and now.  Well, my existence matters to me in the here and now.  And a day won't come where it won't.  Can anyone here ever say their existence does not matter to them?  Can even one person say that with all honesty?  Such thoughts would seem suicidal to me, or completely indifferent to life.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 12:17:26 pm by Kebooo »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2010, 01:11:32 pm »

What's wrong with being indifferent? What's wrong with life having no meaning? You can still enjoy yourself, your family, your friends, your life.
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Kebooo

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2010, 02:20:57 pm »

Nothing is inherently wrong with feeling there is no meaning or importance to your life, but it would certainly require a lack of egoism and individualism.  I don't lack either of those.  Why even care to enjoy something, to go out of one's way to enjoy it, if there is no level of importance placed on it?  Why not simply walk off a cliff, if staying alive is no more important than dying?  We have motivations and at the very least, subconscious perception of importance.  And why not care to preserve what's important?  If an asteroid was coming to destroy the earth, but we had the power to stop it, wouldn't we stop it?  Who here would be indifferent and not attempt any resistance, any survival, because their life had no meaning or importance and wasn't worth preserving?
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2010, 02:50:27 pm »

No sir, it doesn't imply lack of neither egoism nor individualism. All it means is that you don't try to spot some vague idea of meaning to your life, an idea supposedly existing somewhere out there. It's bullshit, wishful thinking. You can spend the rest of your life looking for one, and in the end you either find yourself embittered due to failure, or in the clutches(forgive me my bias) of some religion or other meaning-provider.
You'll still have your biological hardwiring preventing you from running off the cliff and letting you enjoy pleasant things in life. What was it, Epicureism? Pleasant things are good, unpleasant are bad. Do the good thing and make your life pleasant.

ed:spelling
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 03:07:05 pm by Il Palazzo »
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Kebooo

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2010, 03:23:24 pm »

I'm not prepared to devote my life to pure hedonism.  Many times we must engage in the unpleasant because of our morality, and often doing the right thing doesn't feel pleasant at all. 

Let me spell things out a little more clearly.

Waking up, going to work, putting effort into existing shows there is an inherent importance to your survival.  It does not matter where it comes from.  Whether it is from a notion you have a conscious mind or free will or whether it is biologically hardwired from birth, it is there, it is in the facts of reality and the definitions of the words.  Your body, your mind your very being places an importance on its survival.  It places worth on things.  Worth, importance, purpose.  These things denote some form of 'meaning', perhaps not a universal, fundamental truth, but in the moment you have meaning, a meaning defined by your being, your choices, decisions, your drive to survive, to exist as you would exist.  Your meaning is to obey your being, there is no other way to exist, because if you cease to exist there is nothing to obey and no meaning or lack of meaning exists in the ultimate void of nothingness.

I do not know why people believe meaning must be a universal truth, the very definition has been hijacked by these types of debates.  To say there is no meaning would say you have no purpose, to say you have no purpose would be to say you have no biological functions you carry out, that your existence is merely random whims, whether you wake up a serial killer that enjoys murder or something else would have to be entirely random.  Purpose is such a misused word.  If a human does not have purpose, then nothing has a purpose.  Yet it is clear a television was created with purpose.  All it can be is that which you use it for, for watching TV, as a paper weight, anything.  But it will not fulfill a purpose of transporting you across the universe.  What is the purpose of the universe?  To be, because that is all it can do, to be what it is.  It cannot un-be.  You cannot un-be your self, your ego, your individualism.  You cannot undo or overcome what your mind and body find important, whether you consciously think you can or not.  I could not simply stand up and kill my mother, I would say it is impossible.

So I would argue until the day I die that we are inherently partial.  We are not indifferent.  No man that exists can be truly indifferent, and to think so is a complete delusion of reality.  Even a machine would have a hard time to exist in pure indifference, it has functions that it obeys, but of course it does not have the perception to think about its actions as we do.  Why even do things that are pleasant?  Why is pleasure or happiness or enjoyment somehow worth seeking out?  If they have no meaning, no purpose, none at all, then surely you would have no objection to being murdered.  But yes, your biological hard-wiring to stay alive, you'll say.  And who can conclude that something with no consciousness cannot have purpose?  That is the ultimate mistake of man, to believe that only intelligent design can denote purpose. 

In fact, I would say our entire existence is biological.  Everything you are and ever will be is hardwired, whether by genetics, upbringing or experience.  So your mind, your perception of free will and consciousness, all hardwired.  And why can't there be a purpose or meaning in something that is hardwired?  Why even have the words at all if they do not exist?  If there was a God that made your soul a certain way, made free will exist a certain way, if free will existed in any form or manner, how do those things have any more purpose?  They still exist exactly the only way they can exist, physically or metaphysically.  All purpose requires is a reason to exist.  Well, the reason we exist is because this is how the universe is.  It's just that simple.  We don't have to have a defined endpoint, a divine creator, our purpose is existing as we are.  I don't consider this notion vague at all, nor does it take long to 'find' it.  My hard-wiring has caused me to place importance on my life.  It is clear, the reality is there, there is no way to dispute this fact unless you dispute reality itself (which some people will do).  But in this moment I do not wish to die, my purpose, my reason, my existence, my being, none of it wishes to cease to exist.  I can not overcome it with free will or thought, it's what I am.  And for any other atheists out there, I imagine when your day to die arrives, you will wish it was postponed, that you had more time, unless you are burdened by suffering and pain, but you would probably wish the suffering and pain itself away as well.  To truly accept the void, when it comes, would be akin to losing your desire to survive.  And most people cannot overcome this desire except in moments of sacrifice or true suffering.  Absent of those things, coupled with a mechanism to survive, and no belief in an afterlife, the person is going to wish death away.  I'm simply preemptively wishing it away.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 03:50:29 pm by Kebooo »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2010, 03:59:25 pm »

Why must a person be torn between desperately clinging to life and wishing for death? Why do you think your approach must be so polar?
Nihilism and hedonism are not some dark pits of hoplessness and debauchery.
You can well enough accept the complete lack of meaning to humanity and the universe, and live a happy life. Do you really need some reason for not killing random people? Does the whimsicality of our whole existence make you love your close ones less?
Doing moral things makes you happy, then it'd be contrary to the principle of epicureism not to not to do it. Why would you need some other reason to act morally?
When on a deathbed you can well enough feel happy, providing you've made your life a happy one. What does it matter that you're not going to exist anymore? It didn't matter before you were born, it won't matter for the rest of the eternity. Why make a fuss about it. It's completely irrelevant.
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Kebooo

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2010, 04:25:47 pm »

The reason for not killing random people is because of your innate desires.  I guarantee you that you will feel bad if you rape and murder, you certainly will not feel indifferent about your actions. I think you're deluding yourself if you believe your mind and body don't place importance on things.  Meaning derives itself from purpose, which stems from importance and the existence of being.  We can throw out this whole nonsense about indifference because it's clear none of us are actually indifferent to life; we have very structured and clear desires.  The fact I never murder eliminates any possibility that murder is as important to me as peace, it irrefutably proves my being denotes importance to some things over others.  I don't think there's any rational way to write these facts of reality off.

I may feel it is moral to kill a man that threatens my family.  I will never, ever feel happy about it.  Sometimes choices only have unhappy endings, yet we still make the choice, rather than be indifferent to it.

In the moment, my existence matters.  And all that ever exists is the moment.  If a man is about to kill you, are you going to care?  I would.  Why is a deathbed and old age going to magically change everything for you?  Because they are things so far off from now you really don't have to be aware of how that moment will feel?  Denial of it?  You don't dispute the survival mechanism, yet seem to anticipate that on a deathbed it will disappear for a man that believes his existence is about to end forever (most people do believe in an afterlife, I do not).  Perhaps for some it does disappear, that a man murdering them no longer becomes something they would oppose.  But what you have suggested are very deep contradictions, you would resist a murder (I assume), but completely accept your death because of the decay of your body.  I have read studies saying that Britains fear death more than anything, and that with age, most people fear death more than they do as youth, despite being more religious.  To me, these are logical conclusions that are readily apparent to aware atheists that happen to have a survival mechanism.  It's just most people don't have the realization or awareness that they will wish for more time when they've run out of it.

The concept of something "mattering" is in that moment.  Your existence matters to you in this moment, you are lying if you say otherwise or you should be willing to accept a murderer killing you.  So at what moment, while I'm alive, would it stop mattering?  Barring pain and suffering or an important cause to sacrifice myself to, why would I simply be indifferent to my death?  It is relevant in the moment and all my existence can ever be is in the moment.  So it is always relevant to me, because when it stops being relevant, "me" no longer exists in any way shape or form.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2010, 04:29:05 pm by Kebooo »
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Tarran

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2010, 05:07:43 pm »

...
In the moment, my existence matters.  And all that ever exists is the moment.  If a man is about to kill you, are you going to care?  I would.  Why is a deathbed and old age going to magically change everything for you?  Because they are things so far off from now you really don't have to be aware of how that moment will feel?  Denial of it?  You don't dispute the survival mechanism, yet seem to anticipate that on a deathbed it will disappear for a man that believes his existence is about to end forever (most people do believe in an afterlife, I do not).  Perhaps for some it does disappear, that a man murdering them no longer becomes something they would oppose.  But what you have suggested are very deep contradictions, you would resist a murder (I assume), but completely accept your death because of the decay of your body.  I have read studies saying that Britains fear death more than anything, and that with age, most people fear death more than they do as youth, despite being more religious.  To me, these are logical conclusions that are readily apparent to aware atheists that happen to have a survival mechanism.  It's just most people don't have the realization or awareness that they will wish for more time when they've run out of it.
...
There is no way to stop death from old age, might as well go into the void happy then afraid, because it's the end of life for you, nothing can stop it, and not enjoying your last moments is a waste of the tiny amount of time you have left on this world. A murderer, on the other hand, you might be able to prevent your death, and you are never going to die happy from being murdered. So it is wrong comparing murder to old age.

I would rather die of old age then anything else, it just seems better in nearly every way. I would not like dieing before I do something worthwhile in this world, but if I have to, then so be it.



Just a nitpick from me, my logic may be flawed, but I usually don't talk about death anyway. ::)
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Quote from: Phantom
Unknown to most but the insane and the mystics, Tarran is actually Earth itself, as Earth is sentient like that planet in Avatar. Originally Earth used names such as Terra on the internet, but to protect it's identity it changed letters, now becoming the Tarran you know today.
Quote from: Ze Spy
Tarran has the "Tarran Bug", a bug which causes the affected character to repeatedly hit teammates while dual-wielding instead of whatever the hell he is shooting at.

Kebooo

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2010, 05:15:14 pm »

...
In the moment, my existence matters.  And all that ever exists is the moment.  If a man is about to kill you, are you going to care?  I would.  Why is a deathbed and old age going to magically change everything for you?  Because they are things so far off from now you really don't have to be aware of how that moment will feel?  Denial of it?  You don't dispute the survival mechanism, yet seem to anticipate that on a deathbed it will disappear for a man that believes his existence is about to end forever (most people do believe in an afterlife, I do not).  Perhaps for some it does disappear, that a man murdering them no longer becomes something they would oppose.  But what you have suggested are very deep contradictions, you would resist a murder (I assume), but completely accept your death because of the decay of your body.  I have read studies saying that Britains fear death more than anything, and that with age, most people fear death more than they do as youth, despite being more religious.  To me, these are logical conclusions that are readily apparent to aware atheists that happen to have a survival mechanism.  It's just most people don't have the realization or awareness that they will wish for more time when they've run out of it.
...
There is no way to stop death from old age, might as well go into the void happy then afraid, because it's the end of life for you, nothing can stop it, and not enjoying your last moments is a waste of the tiny amount of time you have left on this world. A murderer, on the other hand, you might be able to prevent your death, and you are never going to die happy from being murdered. So it is wrong comparing murder to old age.

I would rather die of old age then anything else, it just seems better in nearly every way. I would not like dieing before I do something worthwhile in this world, but if I have to, then so be it.



Just a nitpick from me, my logic may be flawed, but I usually don't talk about death anyway. ::)

Suppose this, then.  There's an asteroid coming, and we have no possible way to stop it, scientists have concluded it is impossible and is inevitable as biological death.  It's going to wipe out humanity.  Are you going to feel happy about it, or apprehensive?  Are you going to think "I wish we had more time, I wish things were different", or just "oh well, so it goes, it doesn't matter anyway"?  I know which way I would feel.  There is always the possibility of biological immortality, that death can be 'fought' in that regard, but sooner or later some accident, murder, supernova or end of the universe would most likely catch up to us.  But still, is there something wrong with fighting the inexorable, or wishing to oppose it?  Would you not attempt to stop an alien invasion that we do not have the capability to stop, if the alien invasion was massacring all people?  If you truly knew in your heart it could not be stopped, would you simply give up and accept the slaughter?  What gives me anxiety is the fact I don't have a front to fight it (I suppose science is one front), either the physics of the world will lead to the death or it won't, and there's no choice, not even a delusion of choice. 

If you do something worthwhile then die, after you die, it won't matter to you because you won't exist.  That is what is hard to accept.  Why do something worthwhile?  Well, because it matters in the moment, that's the only reason.  And doesn't your life always matter in the moment?  So when would that moment stop mattering?  I'm a very happy person.  In fact I derive happiness from a great deal of things, it's why I don't want to die.  I've never suggested I was unhappy, or that when I'm old I'll be unhappy, simply an apprehension or fear of death when I think of it grasping out at me.
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Tarran

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2010, 05:45:29 pm »

What I'm trying to say is that if shit is going to happen and you are going to die no matter what, then I would just accept it, since fighting it is an utter waste of my remaining time.

Why would you live out your remaining time with the asteroid in fear? Why not make the most of your time left?

If Aliens came, and there was no way to stop them, I would go out in a bang happily, as long as I take some of them with me. You?
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Quote from: Phantom
Unknown to most but the insane and the mystics, Tarran is actually Earth itself, as Earth is sentient like that planet in Avatar. Originally Earth used names such as Terra on the internet, but to protect it's identity it changed letters, now becoming the Tarran you know today.
Quote from: Ze Spy
Tarran has the "Tarran Bug", a bug which causes the affected character to repeatedly hit teammates while dual-wielding instead of whatever the hell he is shooting at.

Kebooo

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2010, 05:50:32 pm »

What I'm trying to say is that if shit is going to happen and you are going to die no matter what, then I would just accept it, since fighting it is an utter waste of my remaining time.

Why would you live out your remaining time with the asteroid in fear? Why not make the most of your time left?

If Aliens came, and there was no way to stop them, I would go out in a bang happily, as long as I take some of them with me. You?

You must be misunderstanding my position here.  I'm not advocating people sit around feeling fearful and no longer living their lives, or to even change how they live.  That would be a complete mischaracterization of my thoughts and my life.  All I'm saying is that when I think about it, when I take time to consider it (like in this thread, as we all now have), I feel a small amount of apprehension and fear.  I also wish things were different.  Have you ever wished for something that isn't possible?  I thought this was common to most people.  When death gets closer, it is perfectly logical to assume one would consider it more often and that the fear would increase (as real world studies have shown).  And in the end, how you 'go out' won't even matter. 

I don't see how I could "go out happy" as my loved ones are massacred around me.  I suppose I haven't quite reached that level of emotional detachment yet.
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Tarran

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Re: Fear of falling asleep
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2010, 07:12:27 pm »

Well, you could go out happy knowing that you got revenge? :P

Yes, I wish I had more time, but if we did not have this short of a life then it would be both good and bad, think, you have so much time, like 1000 years, the good is that you can do everything you want, but what happens once you run out of things to do? It's just like going to bed at night, you wish you had more time, but when you run out of things to do, you go to sleep. See what I mean?

Hope I'm not that bad at explaining my point... :P
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Quote from: Phantom
Unknown to most but the insane and the mystics, Tarran is actually Earth itself, as Earth is sentient like that planet in Avatar. Originally Earth used names such as Terra on the internet, but to protect it's identity it changed letters, now becoming the Tarran you know today.
Quote from: Ze Spy
Tarran has the "Tarran Bug", a bug which causes the affected character to repeatedly hit teammates while dual-wielding instead of whatever the hell he is shooting at.
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