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Author Topic: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]  (Read 2299 times)

Xombie

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Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« on: April 05, 2010, 03:05:03 am »

Whenever adventurer get a scratch he will never stop bleeding. It's like everyone has hemophilia. Not sure if it's bug or feature.

So we need bleeding to stop automatically after some time, at least for minor wounds and when arteria isn't damaged.
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DoctorZuber

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2010, 03:31:39 am »

Are you certain this is from bleeding? With the way blood spatter works now it seems more likely that you're just seeing the same blood being spread all over the place. It's a pretty comical process if you just kick back and watch it.
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Xombie

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2010, 11:41:05 am »

Well it shows 'bleeding' status in char screen and bleeding adventurer actually dies after a while with 100% probability. Even with uber-toughness and super-strenght etc.
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Neonivek

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2010, 11:43:05 am »

You sure his entire skin didn't fall off?
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Quietust

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 02:26:42 pm »

You sure he isn't melting in the rain?
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Chthonic

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 03:56:12 pm »

Were you shot?  I think--not certain--that pulling out any bolts stuck in you might be a first step toward recovering.  Sometimes.
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Xombie

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 09:23:47 pm »

I was shot by wooden arrow but it only scratched skin and didn't stick, so i cant pull it out

my point is that only skin is damaged in health window and it can never recover from bleeding


EDIT: From the other hand(if your other hand wasn't torn off by pack of wolves) it may be just a bug
some guy reported it in bugs thread:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=52356.0

hope it's going to be fixed faster that way.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2010, 09:38:19 pm by Xombie »
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Paul

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 01:58:21 am »

I just had this happen in the arena while checking out combat.

I had two dwarves with adamantine shortswords fight. The winner had no injuries except a brown wound to the leg, and the other's sword was stuck in. I took him over and using the adventure mode commands pulled out the sword, but had no way to stop the bleeding. The wound report showed that the skin of his left upper leg was cut open. After a while he slowly went faint, then pale, then died from blood loss.

The funny thing is dwarves who completely lose their limbs are better off than those who get their skin cut, since the skin doesn't seem to stop bleeding while the missing limbs don't seem to bleed.
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Supercharazad

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 06:52:31 am »

You need a special item that I found...CLOTH! BUY SOME! STEAL SOME! WRAP IT AROUND YOUR WOUNDS!
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Neonivek

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 01:33:16 pm »

Unfortunately it is rather realistic...

unless you stop the bleeding a lot of deep cuts can cause you to bleed to death in minutes.

It is unfortunate but the body is rather fragile.

Now, if that would make a fun game however is another story.
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Andeerz

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 03:43:23 pm »

Unfortunately it is rather realistic...

The funny thing is dwarves who completely lose their limbs are better off than those who get their skin cut, since the skin doesn't seem to stop bleeding while the missing limbs don't seem to bleed.

This strikes me as rather unrealistic.  :P  Hopefully this gets fixed!
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Narmio

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2010, 02:38:35 am »

There seem to be several problems at work here.  A creature stabbed multiple times in the body with a spear seems to not be adversely affected in the short term.  Blood loss takes really quite a while unless arteries are hit (typically in the upper leg).

This is actually sort of realistic, but what is not so realistic is that the creature is usually not impaired at all until it bleeds out.  Even organ hits don't cause much problem until vomiting/loss of breath etc kick in.  Speardwarves regularly mortally wound an opponent then get mauled and killed by it before the wound takes effect. There should be a system of shock, pain and trauma whereby attacks and other actions performed by a seriously wounded creature are of much less potency.  Otherwise the instant part-removal of hacking weapons won't really ever be balanced against the deep wounds caused by stabbing ones.  Sufficiently large and tough creatures should of course be able to ignore some level of pain and continue fighting mostly unimpaired, but right now it's just silly.

A similar problem seems to occur with breaks.  A shattered foot bone should make dodging, moving or even continuing to stand extremely hard.  A shattered shoulder should make a shield very hard to use or a weapon held in that arm totally useless.  At the moment there's a system whereby creatures can lose hold of items, but it's totally binary as far as I can tell - operating normally or useless.  I think we need gradual impairment of action.

There also seems to be another issue with relative weapon/part size.  It's ludicrously easy for an axe to penetrate gauntlets and sever hands, but at the same time it's nearly impossible for that axe to even scratch the paint on a breastplate.  The weapon size vs body part size is having a very large effect, when you really should be able to create small wounds anywhere on the body if you can penetrate the armour - this is assuming gauntlets and breastplates are of equal thickness, which seems to be a reasonable assumption.  This one may actually be a bug, because it seems the thickness or size of the part being hit is checked before the armour it's wrapped in takes effect.  This contributes to another problem...

...Material hardness effectiveness.  If something is harder than what you're hitting it with, nothing ever seems to happen, regardless of the strength or skill level of the attacker.  This means that a copper maul wielded by a legendary-skilled male giantess has no real chance against a fully steel armoured dwarven peasant.   Of course, hardness should be an important factor, but it is currently overpowering everything else: skill, strength, etc.

There would also appear to be little or no relationship between the size of an attack surface, the strength of an attacker and the depth of the wound.  If we assume that a given strength means the ability to impart a given amount of force, then that force hitting over the 40000 area of a battle axe should be much lower than hitting over the 20 area of a spear.  But the spear doesn't appear, to me, to be significantly better at penetrating armour or doing serious damage to an unarmoured target, although possibly its ability is being obscured by the effects described above.

There's also a few other oddities with weapon and stone traps, bare arms, bronze vs iron vs brass vs copper vs steel, the utility of leather by itself or under chain/plate, and I'm sure many other smaller things.  In any case, I'm confident this awesomely complex and involved combat system can be fixed with the tweaking of a few of Toady's formulas, and possibly with the minor addition of a new shock/pain system.  I'm eagerly awaiting the time when Toady gets to rebalancing things. 

In the mean time, do *not* embark without flux, always use axes, don't embark where there might be undead/unalive creatures and finally mod breastplates to include pauldrons.  It's a hell of a lot of fun.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2010, 02:48:00 am by Narmio »
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Andeerz

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2010, 03:26:32 am »

I am in agreement with you!  But I think there already is a pain system of sorts.  When looking at the status of a pair of duelists in arena mode, I occasionally see one "give in to pain", whatever that means.  But, yeah, this pain system is obviously not quite sufficient as it is.

Also, gauntlets IRL tend not to be as thick as breasplates or other armor parts.  Gauntlets are mainly there to prevent fingers from being lopped off, and absorb only a small bit of shock from glancing blows.  I can point you to some documentation if you wish that support my claim.  I could see an axe crushing a gauntleted hand with a direct hit, but frequently severing the hand seems a bit extreme.

Anyway, you are spot-on on just about everything...  I hope this stuff gets resolved in a relatively realistic and fun manner.   

 
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Narmio

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2010, 06:14:16 am »

I was just guessing about thicknesses, so I'll bow to actual knowledge on the subject.  I guess it makes sense that articulated parts are going to have thinner metal.  It seems, though, that the game isn't modelling that, it's just going off the relative sizes.

The odd thing appears to be that it's incredibly easy to get a sever result if you manage to get a hit on a finger or toe.  In fact, for such a high attack surface:part size ratio it seems very rare that anything else will happen, although finger hits are thankfully pretty rare.
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Paul

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Re: Deadly Bleeding [AdvMode]
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2010, 11:40:40 am »

Heh, it's kinda funny.

Two dwarves armored in full adamantine end up dieing of bleeding from loss of fingers, toes, ears, and occasionally eyes. The rest of the armor is too hard to penetrate and most attacks glance away.

Giving dwarves adamantine skin gives similar effects - the body is untouchable everywhere except for small digits like fingers and toes. Those parts don't get cut off (since the skin itself is adamantine!) but you get mangles and bad bruises until someone bleeds to death.
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