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[Elone]

[pre-post edit] Oh my gosh I LOVE that sign, Elone! I am saving it to my HD, and yes, that is EXACTLY what I had in mind. 8D

Yaaay! I'm flattered! Who knew that being prepared for a raptor related situation like this, and keeping that image, would pay off someday? For the same reason we should build raptor fences, install alarms, and remember to quickly run behind a closed door should we ever encounter a raptor.

It wouldn't since it requires to remap all tiles and ores, and in ASCII they use much more symbols than in graphical tilesets .

Oh, I see... I had no idea. I thought that the graphical one will be the one loaded with tiles, while the ASCII one squeezes and shares tiles between dissimilar objects cause there's not enough room.

In what way do you suggest that I watch for changes? =P

Hmm, I wonder if the tile chooser is a public app. I'll go look.

Aaaand found! Ah, I remember why I skimmed past this in the past. "Provides an easy to use graphical interface to select which tiles and  colors should be displayed for plants, stones and small creatures." I remember finding the practical usage to be pretty small for me, as I did not need to really edit any of these. I will look into it I guess.

[asfghn]

and remember to quickly run behind a closed door

but they have [CANOPENDOORS]



And awww, I was about to post with a link to the raw tile selector for you, but when I quoted your post to 'reply' to it you'd already made your edit that you found it.

[edit] Because I guess I'm just going to spam xkcd forever (hey, at least I'm not cursing you and spamming tvtropes... whoops), the alt text in this one.

[edit2] And this one!

[Jeoshua]

Okay.  Seriously.  I've been struggling with this all day long now and I need to get an answer.

Whatever tweaks you did to Trolls? They're way too good.

In Legends mode, I am seeing trolls with kill lists longer than dragons.  Longer than hydras.  Honestly I have seen Trolls that have taken OUT Dragons in their lairs.  Without blinking, I would imagine.

What have you changed here, to make them this potent? I see [PRONE_TO_RAGE:7] but that doesn't seem like it should do this, should it?

I've done everything except remove [LARGE_ROAMING] from them, which I really want to keep on there so they wander around and attack cities.  But they're just WAY too good at it in Legends mode.  I've seen Trolls that have taken out whole cities of heavilly armed and armored Dwarves, Keepers... nothing stops them.  I added a [MAXAGE] token, and old age seems to be the only way to stop them!

I've lowered their frequency... they just come less often now, and give people some time to recover from their onslaughts... but then they're back again.

And they have kids too.

So I'm asking, what are my options here? Can they be made killable in Legends mode without nerfing them too badly in Fortress and Adventurer?

[asfghn]

Okay.  Seriously.  I've been struggling with this all day long now and I need to get an answer.

Whatever tweaks you did to Trolls? They're way too good.

[...]

See, this is exactly what I want people to post about raptors. TIME FOR MORE TWEAKING.

[Jeoshua]

*whimper*

... Clever girl ....

[SirAaronIII]

I guess you could try making their skin/bones/tissues out of a custom material that's really really soft and easy to cut.

[Jeoshua]

I guess you could try making their skin/bones/tissues out of a custom material that's really really soft and easy to cut.

... OR

I could make them not be made of Genesis's tough stuff.

But the thing is I don't want them to be super easy to kill, just not so horribly prolifically violent that they attack every city in a 100 tile radius.  They SHOULD be tough, but maybe a bit less... outgoing?

[TomiTapio]

Okay.  Seriously.  I've been struggling with this all day long now and I need to get an answer.
Whatever tweaks you did to Trolls? They're way too good.

Swamp trolls are toughmaterials, NOPAIN (do not faint from injuries),
   [NATURAL_SKILL:BITE:5] bite your head
   [NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:3]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING:5] waste precious combat time in wrestling
   [NATURAL_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE:3]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE:6] punch like hell
   [NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:4] I'll reduce this detect_stealthers
   [NATURAL_SKILL:MELEE_COMBAT:5] good at counterattacks
can_learn, [LIKES_FIGHTING] [PRONE_TO_RAGE:2] and weigh 250kg. So they are quite like minotaurs, buy maybe minos don't have nopain.

Maybe with can_learn their skills go up in every battle, and then they're Heroes of Legend! You try removing can_learn.

Huh, minotaurs have better skills, nopain, and this thickness boost:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

      [SELECT_TISSUE:FAT]
         [HEALING_RATE:50]
         [RELATIVE_THICKNESS:2]
         [PAIN_RECEPTORS:1]
      [SELECT_TISSUE:MUSCLE]
         [HEALING_RATE:50]
         [RELATIVE_THICKNESS:6]
         [PAIN_RECEPTORS:1]
      [SELECT_TISSUE:SKIN]
         [HEALING_RATE:50]
         [RELATIVE_THICKNESS:3]
         [PAIN_RECEPTORS:0]

but minotaurs are far fewer in number, trolls have 2-10 in an area. But must be EVIL area for troll.


Edit: only 40 plants to go until can test the my ascii ver.

[asfghn]

*whimper*

... Clever girl ....

MUAHAHAHAHA




Okay, how do these stats look? (It's okay if they're overpowered, insane, and/or gamebreaking; that's what I'm going for, though I'll probably tone them down later. It's not okay, on the other hand, if they are any less than awesomely awesome.) I noticed that dogs have that wacky [SKILL_RATE] tag, which I wasn't completely sure how to use, so I copied them over and modified them without any real idea of what I was doing... soooo these are probably really messy (I would appreciate help in that department!).

I've been running them through the arena, but they still tend to go down fairly easy. This is okay, but I'd prefer they do serious damage first.

I also added a few more skills, such as kicking and melee combat. I'm not sure, looking over the attacks, if kicking warrants its own attack, like bite and claw?* someone help me

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[CREATURE:RAPTOR]
   [DESCRIPTION:A fierce, taloned creature, relentless in its pursuit. It resembles a wingless bird with powerful jaws and legs. Feathers adorn its arms and head in a colorful crest. Its markings vary widely in shape and color.]
   [NAME:raptor:raptors:raptor]
   [CASTE_NAME:raptor:raptors:raptor]
   [CHILD:1][GENERAL_CHILD_NAME:raptor chick:raptor chicks]
   [CREATURE_TILE:255][COLOR:7:0:1]
   [PETVALUE:80]
   [PET][MOUNT][TRAINABLE]
   [COMMON_DOMESTIC]
   [CANOPENDOORS]
   [UTTERANCES]
   [LARGE_PREDATOR][MEANDERER]
   [LARGE_ROAMING][FREQUENCY:14]
   [BIOME:ANY_FOREST]
   [BIOME:GRASSLAND_TEMPERATE]
   [BIOME:SAVANNA_TEMPERATE]
   [SAVAGE][PRONE_TO_RAGE:10]
   [NATURAL]
   [SPEED:540]
   [POPULATION_NUMBER:3:20]
   [CLUSTER_NUMBER:3:7]
   [BONECARN][NOFEAR]
   [LIKES_FIGHTING][TRAPAVOID]
   [PREFSTRING:intelligent gaze]
   [PREFSTRING:enormous toeclaws]
   [PREFSTRING:chirpings and clicks]
   [PREFSTRING:fearlessness]

      [CAN_LEARN] --enable natural_skill
      [SKILL_RATES:0:8:8:16] --only allow mentioned skills

         [SKILL_RATE:BITE:100:8:8:16]
      [NATURAL_SKILL:BITE:8]
         [SKILL_RATE:DODGING:100:8:8:16]
      [NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:8]
         [SKILL_RATE:WRESTLING:100:8:8:16]
      [NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING:6]
         [SKILL_RATE:STANCE_STRIKE:100:8:8:16]
      [NATURAL_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE:8]
         [SKILL_RATE:GRASP_STRIKE:100:8:8:16]
      [NATURAL_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE:8]
         [SKILL_RATE:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:100:8:8:16]
      [NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:10]
         [SKILL_RATE:KICKING:100:8:8:16]
      [NATURAL_SKILL:KICKING:8]
         [SKILL_RATE:MELEE_COMBAT:100:8:8:16]
      [NATURAL_SKILL:MELEE_COMBAT:6]
   [BODY:HUMANOID:HUMANOID_JOINTS:TAIL:2EYES:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:NOSE:MOUTH:GENERIC_TEETH_WITH_FANGS:RIBCAGE:3FINGERS:4TOES]
   [BODYGLOSS:MAW:CLAW_HAND:CLAW_FOOT]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:TOUGHSTANDARD_MATERIALS]
      [REMOVE_MATERIAL:HAIR]
      [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:FEATHER:FEATHER_TEMPLATE]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_TISSUES]
      [REMOVE_TISSUE:HAIR]
      [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:FEATHER:FEATHER_TEMPLATE]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:VERTEBRATE_TISSUE_LAYERS:SKIN:FAT:MUSCLE:BONE:CARTILAGE]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BODY_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS:FEATHER]
   
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TOOTH_BEAST:TOOTH_BEAST_TEMPLATE]
   [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:TOOTH_BEAST:TOOTH_TEMPLATE]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TALON_BEAST:NAIL_BEAST_TEMPLATE]
   [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:TALON_BEAST:NAIL_TEMPLATE]
   
   [TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:TOOTH:TOOTH_BEAST]
   [TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:FINGER:TALON_BEAST:FRONT]
   [TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:TOE:TALON_BEAST:FRONT]
   
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:EGG_MATERIALS]
   [SELECT_TISSUE_LAYER:HEART:BY_CATEGORY:HEART]
    [PLUS_TISSUE_LAYER:SKIN:BY_CATEGORY:THROAT]
      [TL_MAJOR_ARTERIES]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HUMANOID_RIBCAGE_POSITIONS]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SINEW:SINEW_TEMPLATE]
   [TENDONS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]
   [LIGAMENTS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]
   [HAS_NERVES]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BLOOD:BLOOD_TEMPLATE]
   [BLOOD:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:BLOOD:LIQUID]
   [CREATURE_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]
   [GETS_WOUND_INFECTIONS]
   [GETS_INFECTIONS_FROM_ROT]
   [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:PUS:PUS_TEMPLATE]
   [PUS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:PUS:LIQUID]
   [BODY_SIZE:0:0:300]
   [BODY_SIZE:1:0:60000]
   [BODY_SIZE:2:0:150000]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
   [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
   [MAXAGE:10:30]
   [ATTACK:BITE:CHILD_BODYPART_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:BY_CATEGORY:TOOTH]
      [ATTACK_SKILL:BITE]
      [ATTACK_VERB:bite:bites]
      [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]
      [ATTACK_PRIORITY:MAIN]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_CANLATCH]
   [ATTACK:CLAW:CHILD_TISSUE_LAYER_GROUP:BY_TYPE:STANCE:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:TALON_BEAST]
      [ATTACK_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE]
      [ATTACK_VERB:claw:claws]
      [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:100]
      [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]
      [ATTACK_PRIORITY:MAIN]
   [ALL_ACTIVE]
   [HOMEOTHERM:10067]
   [SWIMS_INNATE][SWIM_SPEED:2500]
   [CASTE:FEMALE]
      [FEMALE]
      [LAYS_EGGS]
         [EGG_MATERIAL:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:EGGSHELL:SOLID]
         [EGG_MATERIAL:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:EGG_WHITE:LIQUID]
         [EGG_MATERIAL:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:EGG_YOLK:LIQUID]
         [EGG_SIZE:300]
         [CLUTCH_SIZE:3:6]
   [CASTE:MALE]
      [MALE]
   [SELECT_CASTE:ALL]
     [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:FEATHER]
         [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:GREEN:1:GREY:1:RED:1:BLUE:1:WHITE:1:BLACK:1:PINK:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:feathers:PLURAL]
      [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SKIN]
         [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:MARKINGS_GREEN:1:BLUE:1:RED:1:GREY:1:IRIDESCENT:1:WHITE:1:PINK:1:TAN:1:BROWN:1:BLACK:1:VIOLET:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:skin:SINGULAR]
      [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EYE:EYE]
         [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:BLACK:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:eyes:PLURAL]
   [SELECT_MATERIAL:ALL]
      [MULTIPLY_VALUE:5]

[edit] Just realized I'd left in MOUNT_EXOTIC; replaced it with just MOUNT until that bug is fixed.

Oh, and PETVALUE is intentionally that low so that I can embark with a bunch and test them out as guard/war animals. Haven't yet set them to hunting... an interesting project.


*A 'rip' or 'rend' attack would be pretty cool. Is there any way to mod that toe claw, or am I stuck with the current body parts?

[Jeoshua]

They can't be raptors without their claw.  It's the Raptor claw... *eeee* I just cringed thinking about that thing!

I'm afraid I don't know enough about creature raws to say anything about it.  I know there is a way to make the third toe's claw bigger than normal, through a template or directly in the creature file.

Either way, it should be on the feet, and it's associated skill would, therefore, be STANCE_STRIKE

[TomiTapio]

Here's my ASCIIfied Genesis currentversion (save-compatible with my previous bonfire-having Ironhand versions) (since the bonfire mod is two materials, two reactions, one workshop, dorf entity permissions)

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8967397/Genesis_3.25c_ASCII_Tomis_Bonfires__Apr23.zip
unzip to folder and run the exe like in regular Genesis downloads. This is not a raws-only update.

Kat: huge dragons have all skills at 6, so I'd rather not see raptors at 8. Kicking is not a skill, in DF-land it is "stance_strike".
Dragon raptors in my worlds have speed 780 (lower is faster, 900 is default) and skills:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

   [NATURAL_SKILL:BITE:5]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:3]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:WRESTLING:4]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE:3]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE:3]
   [NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:4]

problem with wrestling skill higher than bite or strike is that wrestling moves do faaaaaar less damage. Bite-latch_on-shake is what kills creatures as limbs get ripped off.
And since raptors are smart, they should sometimes flee and not be berserkers.

When a migrant dorf has skills at 2-3, I call them trainee. 4-5, "military". 6-9, "hero". So 10-20 in combat skills are "absolutely legendary" in my book.


Aw man my current Armormyths home looks crap in ascii:
One certainly can see much more of the area using tiny tiles.
And is the mica and orthoclase supposed to be the "£" pound symbol, I haven't played ascii in ages. Magnetite is "ú"

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In my opinion, one dragon should be equally dangerous as one squad of axegoblins (who I think have skills 5-6). Get similar casualties from such a major enemy. If a dragon kills only one or two dwarves... then it was a frelling CROCODILE (bite7 wrest6).

[Jeoshua]

Raptors probably SHOULD have higher stance_strike than dragons, because they weigh far less and therefore will do less damage... but have a habit, not of swiping on you, but JUMPING ONTO YOU.

[asfghn]

Raptors probably SHOULD have higher stance_strike than dragons, because they weigh far less and therefore will do less damage... but have a habit, not of swiping on you, but JUMPING ONTO YOU.

Demonstrated.

@Tomi: Are military-type skills separate from adventurer/production-type skills, then? Because I recall that in Therapist, Legendary whatevers read as a raw value of 15. I'm definitely not contradicting or disagreeing with you (it's so hard to convey tone over the interwebs :<), but like I said, I wanted my raptors to be ridiculously overpowered. I'm certainly not submitting these raws for use in the actual, public-consumption Genesis That would be silly! And, well... ridiculous. But DF is my way of cheering myself up when I have bad days, and kind of like infinite-ammo or invincibility cheats in other games, for my personal play style I sometimes like to have zillions of embark points or legendary raptors.

Really, I was looking for pointers on how to streamline the code and how to achieve some other stuff, like enlarging the third toe claw and involving that in STANCE_STRIKE (good to know, btw, that kicking isn't a stat! the mod skill names vs in-game skill names get really confusing). I really don't know what I'm doing when it comes to body parts/attacks/skills (so... pretty much everything? *shot*), but I really, really want to learn, and you're all fine brilliant modding folk I haven't found any pointers to modding... well, anything, except for the list of creature tokens on the wiki which doesn't go into much detail—but I might just not be looking in the right places, and I make new discoveries all the time (like that article I found yesterday that actually explained the advanced worldgen parameters!)

[edit] Also, is SKILL_RATE redundant? I notice that a lot of critters who used to have it don't anymore, just NATURAL_SKILL. Can creatures lacking SKILL_RATE still level those skills?

[Deon]

No they can't. It was there at 0 to stop them from leveling them too.

[asfghn]

Morning, Deon! I'm just heading to bed.

But okay, I should probably remove the [SKILL_RATE] tags, then—they probably don't need them, as high as they are.
And I definitely never intended them for inclusion in Genesis proper; they're just for my private use, since I like having way over-the-top raptors. I grew up with Jurassic Park, and haven't ceased to be a dinosaur nerd for... God, almost twenty years? Buuuut I wanted to check if the parameters were at least sound-ish, and catch things like that KICKING/STANCE_STRIKE thing.

So thanks all, I really appreciate it Sorry if I offended anyone with my outlandish overpowering of things! 8'<