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Author Topic: [40.24] ۩۩۩ Genesis Mod ۩۩۩ [ϟ .11c Old Genesis ϟ] - 0.40.25 update by TomiTapio  (Read 1241826 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4110 on: December 06, 2010, 08:05:26 pm »

Or I can just remove obsidian dwarves, since starting those annoying fires is the only thing that differentiates their caste from a standard dwarf.
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inEQUALITY

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4111 on: December 06, 2010, 08:05:59 pm »

Or I can just remove obsidian dwarves, since starting those annoying fires is the only thing that differentiates their caste from a standard dwarf.

Always an option. :P

Just not as fun. ;)
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4112 on: December 06, 2010, 08:15:10 pm »

I'm probably getting an annoying reputation but here goes. I was playing and I got a "FATAL ERROR" message. Specifically something about LARGE_DAGGERS. Or something along those lines. Missing raws? Anyone else have this problem?
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SalmonGod

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4113 on: December 06, 2010, 08:17:41 pm »

Well the more fun option would be to make their fire actually effective on something other than grass.  I wouldn't have a problem with them if that were the case.  I need to just look up how to do that when I get home.  Would it be as simple as making their firebreath hotter?
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Axecleaver

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4114 on: December 06, 2010, 08:50:46 pm »

Yep, we got munchkinism, there's even rare super-swords one can get from altar-of-war sacrificing reaction. It's Deon's mod.

You're right, it is his mod. (And an amazing mod, it is!) As such, Deon is free to do with it as he sees fit. I was just voicing my concern over what I saw as development towards more "hardcore" players, which may further disappoint and distance some players like myself who don't need that much of a challenge.

The rare super-sword thing doesn't bother me because it's rare. In fact, I think the altar sacrificing thing is another cool idea - it reminds me of all the cool alter sacrifice stuff in ADoM. I only wish Genesis had more ADoM-like stuff, like the use of holy water to bless items, magic scrolls, and the drinking from magic pools. (Though, I have read that Toady plans to eventually take DF towards a more magical/fantasy bent.)

Big forest fire is annoying, but sometimes EPIC. I do want some random explosions, hmm perhaps a 2% chance in workshop X for a poison puddle to be produced...

As I said, it seems we want different things out of DF. The first time can be fun as a novelty. But I see annoying as very bad in a game - something for relaxing and entertainment, not frustration.

Balor... the megabeasts Should Not die of "ten dwarves punch it a lot". (might be a major flaw somewhere in the punching combat coding, or dwarf strength.)

Are you saying that 10 Steel Dwarves who are all Legendary in Wrestling should not be able to kill or disable a megabeast ? o_O Let's put it another way, if there were ten dwarven equivalents to Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee, should they be able to incapacitate a megabeast?

I find vanilla DF's megabeasts too puny.

Perhaps in vanilla several of them could have used a slight boost. But I think that if megabeasts still seem puny in Genesis, after being beefed-up, it's only because all the other races and critters are even more beefy.

And ridiculous that a wooden cage trap gets a dragon/wyvern. (Toady made all random-generated megabeasts trap-avoiding!)

I can't argue with the rediculousness of a dragon/wyvern being trapped in a cage made of wood. However, I really want to be able to trap them with cages and I see no logical reason why a trap of, say, red steel or adamantium shouldn't be able to hold them. (What castle could be considered complete without a dragon in the dungeon? For that matter, I'd love to be able to breed them!) IMO, to have megabeasts set to trap-avoiding really hurts the usefulness of traps. Megabeasts can be hard enough to deal with even when traps are able to hurt them slightly.

Most animals in vanilla are all the same default speed, so horse and rat and ogre are the same speed. And dwarves outrun running-optimized mammals like deer.

IMO, having dwarves outrun animals like deer seems silly. But then, the speed of critters is not what bothers me - even if running away is a valid strategy for survival. (For that matter, I would find it ridiculous for an herbivore such as elk or deer go out of its way to attack an adventurer or dwarf. They can and do attack, but this is rare without provocation.) However, it does concern me that you are adding a high degree of skill in Wrestling to animals just so they can avoid being pinned. Should Wrestling be considered an obsolete skill? What do you have against Wrestlers?

Current Genesis looks like hardcore edition to me, especially if one sets the siege triggers to low (made 100k wealth -> siege). Hardest factor might be how often sieges come, at worst might have four civs sieging you and then the orcs come and try to sell you cheese.

Yes, I see the current Genesis as Hardcore Edition as well. Hence my problem. But it's nice to know we can alleviate this somewhat by adjusting things like siege triggers. (Now, if I can only figure out how to adjust those things...)

I suppose it would be easy to make a patch file that changes all the dwarves to be stronger faster more durable, thus making all fort-defending 2-3 times easier. All dwarves to steel caste, easy version done.

But that's just a simple fix, not a solution. That still wouldn't address the underlying balance issues. And doing that would make certain opponents, such as Sylvan elves, complete pushovers again (even with their Ironwood weapons).

I still want the Elk to be deadlier in combat than the Deer, the tiger to bite better than the cheetah, and the Cave Ogre to punch and wrestle better than the outdoors Ogre.

All that sounds good to me, as long as the difference is kept reasonable. (It can be easy to get carried away making opponents more dangerous.)

Same stuff with all other kinds of games.
For example in pnp games you can minmax and be an unstoppable broken beyond repair war machine or you can be a 'normal' adventurer.

Interesting. I've never had the experience of playing a pen-n-paper RPG where any player was an unstoppable war machine. In fact, all my PnP experience was of players getting easily butchered by overpowered opponents, dying "heroically" (i.e., prematurely) before they reached level 5, simply to satisfy the whims of the GMs. (They admitted that they planned it this way on purpose - for fun.) It didn't seem to matter squat what game was played or who the GM was, either.

With a PnP, the difficulty is almost completely controlled by the GM. The player controls the actions of their character and makes choices in character creation, but beyond that (and pi$$ing off the GM), it's out of their hands. Many modern PC and console games today have difficulty settings in an options screen.

There are some difficulty adjustments possible in DF by the choices made in setting up the world and on the embark screen. And, true enough, certain strategies and knowledge can make things a bit easier - more likely for their adventurer/fortress to survive. But to make it even more difficult or easier would require going "under the hood", making changes to files and/or installing mods. Installing one major mod in DF is complicated enough for some players, but to install a bunch of mods and get them to work together is often a major challenge - esp. without the know-how and experience.

In the end, you've still got human intelligence and you're capable of fully using all kinds of unconventional tactics and the AI is just what it is, artificial. No creative thinking whatsoever.

I do not have issue with how DF has to compensate for lackluster AI by swarms of enemies and over-the-top stats and powers. As you implied, that's true for all [PC and console] games. Rather, I'm saying that by going the "Hardcore" route the current Genesis Mod demands that players be even more creative with strategy (and lucky) than with vanilla DF. That's fine for those who are experienced enough to anticipate such things and know what to do. (Or who don't find restarting to be that big of a deal.) But for the inexperienced, even a seemingly small mistake can ruin a perfectly good adventurer/fort. And that can be esp. frustrating for new players.

I've never seen their [Obsidian dwarves'] firebreath effect anything but grass...
All it results in is every genesis mod fort having an outdoors that's constantly reduced to ashes...
After the initial novelty of the dramatic imagery, it becomes more annoying than anything.
I do agree about fire-spitting dwarves. I HATE how they burn the map. That's why I've switched them off (deleted their caste).

OK, maybe they're not overpowered. But it seems a lot of Genesis players find Obsidian dwarves to be very annoying. So... how can we turn them off?

For that matter - since it seems Hardcore Genesis is here to stay - I'd really like to know how to replace all the creatures, castes and races from Genesis with vanilla stuff. From what I've read it seems more complicated that merely copying all the "creature_" files from the vanilla DF .ZIP file. Even if doing this requires something like two dozen detailed steps and two hours of work, I'd want to do this.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 01:02:03 am by bsperan »
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4115 on: December 06, 2010, 10:54:53 pm »

Elected nobles? What nobles?
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Morwaul

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4116 on: December 07, 2010, 01:38:04 am »

I am annoyed by the whole burning map thing as well.  I really like the idea of a caste of dwarves running around throwing fireballs at the enemies though. Instead of turning off Obsidian dwarves, would it be possible to make grass fire proof?
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TomiTapio

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4117 on: December 07, 2010, 02:44:44 am »

As I said, it seems we want different things out of DF. The first time can be fun as a novelty. But I see annoying as very bad in a game - something for relaxing and entertainment, not frustration.
DF is definitely not the game for relaxing. It has random events and sudden combat challenges. You have to monitor the announcements in case of "Morul cancels X due to monsters beating her".

Are you saying that 10 Steel Dwarves who are all Legendary in Wrestling should not be able to kill or disable a megabeast ? o_O Let's put it another way, if there were ten dwarven equivalents to Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee, should they be able to incapacitate a megabeast?
Ten stone dwarves without any weapons. They should all die to the dragon's bite, breath, tailslap and claws before wrestling it down. Dragon should not get exhausted, and not be hurt by average-strength punches. Try again when you have swords and shields.


(What castle could be considered complete without a dragon in the dungeon? For that matter, I'd love to be able to breed them!) IMO, to have megabeasts set to trap-avoiding really hurts the usefulness of traps. Megabeasts can be hard enough to deal with even when traps are able to hurt them slightly.
Sure, a dungeon should have a horse-sized dragon/drake. But not a 3x6 meters (10x20 feet) large megabeast who is Larger Than A Workshop and who Smashes Walls.

that you are adding a high degree of skill in Wrestling to animals just so they can avoid being pinned. Should Wrestling be considered an obsolete skill? What do you have against Wrestlers?
I say that a bear wrestles better than a chicken, and a no-skills no-weapons dwarf should not be able to defeat the bear in single combat. Consider the alligator's strength in thrashing around. Unicorns and horses can twist their legs to get away from the bear's jaws.
(Or: a 60-kg bear teenager wrestles better than a 60-kg ostrich.)

Some animals should not get any skills, like turtles and amorphous blobs and slow-moving creatures. Before natural_skill tag was added by Toady, you could boost an animal's fighting by increasing speed and size, and adding limbs and NOPAIN NOSTUN NOEXERT. And adding poison and non-flesh materials.
Now, a SMALL creature (faun, kobold, nixie, brownie, quickling, pikachu) can be dangerous because it can dodge and avoid getting pinned! Just like a Goblin!
(creature idea: goblin adventurer, all skills at 6.)

Siege triggers, see http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/DF2010:Entity_tokens#Behavior
trigger 0, never, 1, very soon.
trigger 5 means requires 120+ population or something. It's all guesswork until people compile and post to wiki, what the triggers wealth/tradedwealth are.

But that's just a simple fix, not a solution. That still wouldn't address the underlying balance issues. And doing that would make certain opponents, such as Sylvan elves, complete pushovers again (even with their Ironwood weapons).
Any humanoid without a limb-severing or arrow-shooting weapon is a pushover. Unless give dodging and shield and fighting skill to it. Yep, I'll give elves good dodging (just from becoming an adult elf).
Arena test: 10 macedwarf vs 10 elephants compared to 10 axedwarf vs 10 elephants.


OK, maybe they're not overpowered. But it seems a lot of Genesis players find Obsidian dwarves to be very annoying. So... how can we turn them off?
For that matter - since it seems Hardcore Genesis is here to stay - I'd really like to know how to replace all the creatures, castes and races from Genesis with vanilla stuff.
in creature_genesis.txt, remove [FIREBREATH] from the obsidians.

Basically you need to replace the [CREATURE:DWARF] section with the vanilla's creature, and then a similar replacement in the entity files. But the creatures reside in in differently named files, so you have to copy-paste across dozens of files and delete many genesis creatures. Replacing ALL creatures to vanilla state sounds like 2-5 hours of work. (I recommend Crimson Editor's "find string in folders" function. Also recommend WinMerge code-comparison tool to detect and copy text file changes.)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 05:24:31 am by TomiTapio »
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==OldGenesis mod== by Deon & TomiTapio. Five wood classes, four leather classes. Nine enemy civs. So much fine-tuning.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4118 on: December 07, 2010, 07:41:43 am »


Sure, a dungeon should have a horse-sized dragon/drake. But not a 3x6 meters (10x20 feet) large megabeast who is Larger Than A Workshop and who Smashes Walls.


That's an idea. Add "Lesser -foo-" for the various megabeasts as animals (half to quarter size/strength/etc). You could even have a full-powered version as a ultra-rare caste.
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Supercharazad

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4119 on: December 07, 2010, 02:36:56 pm »

Is it weird that my favourite way of killing people in this mod is to bite off their penis and beat them to death with it?
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Urist is dead tome

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4120 on: December 07, 2010, 03:12:37 pm »

I've done that many times and I never get tired of it. Dwarf Fortress has made me a terrible person.
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SalmonGod

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4121 on: December 07, 2010, 04:11:38 pm »

If it's not too much trouble, what would I do to remove fire immunity from non-obsidian dwarves?
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Flaede

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4122 on: December 07, 2010, 04:14:13 pm »

If it's not too much trouble, what would I do to remove fire immunity from non-obsidian dwarves?

I think it would take re-jigging how the special tissues are inserted into the obsidian dwarf caste. From what I've read here, the mass "replace all" seems to affect the entire species not just the caste, so you might have to create a whole new bodytype just for them, that uses the different materials.
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There are many issues with this statement.
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SalmonGod

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4123 on: December 07, 2010, 04:22:01 pm »

Sounds like I just need to learn modding! :)
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Axecleaver

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Re: ۩۩۩ ஃ Genesis Mod ஃ ۩۩۩ [ϟ 3.18 ϟ] - long worldgen again!
« Reply #4124 on: December 07, 2010, 06:51:39 pm »

DF is definitely not the game for relaxing. It has random events and sudden combat challenges. You have to monitor the announcements in case of "Morul cancels X due to monsters beating her".
It's true that players must closely monitor the game. But I still say the random events and occational combat shouldn't completely interefere with the potential of playing DF to help unwind after a hard day. And I was trying to say that, on top of RL issues, I do not need the game I play to have terribly annoying behavior.

I say that a bear wrestles better than a chicken, and a no-skills no-weapons dwarf should not be able to defeat the bear in single combat. Consider the alligator's strength in thrashing around. Unicorns and horses can twist their legs to get away from the bear's jaws. (Or: a 60-kg bear teenager wrestles better than a 60-kg ostrich.)
OK, that makes sense. Thank you for clearing up my confusion.

Also, thank you for explaining how to remove FIREBREATH and modify the creature files. I'll have to play around with those and that should keep me busy for a while.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2010, 08:08:08 pm by bsperan »
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