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Author Topic: Social Structure  (Read 556 times)

Twilight

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Social Structure
« on: July 20, 2007, 08:58:00 am »

Hello,
  I have a feeling that this is more likely than not already in the "future" threads, but, I'm just too lazy   :roll: to search...lazy, lazy, lazy.

The whole noble/non-noble social structure system doesn't quite seem to really work.  What we have are: (1) laborers (peasants and recruits); (2)craftsdwarves (novice, experienced, master) and trained soldiers; (3) managers (bookkeeper, dungeon master, etc. - skilled white collar professionals, if you will); (4) the ruling elite (champions, dukes, king; legendaries economically).  Except for champions, individuals cannot move between # 1 & 2 and # 3 & 4.  
    Of course, there would be appointments made early-on by the home/colonizing fortress (the appointments alone would be rewards - or punishments), but, maybe there should be greater permeability between the classes.  I would consider # 3 as being more like legondary # 2s than like # 4 (true) nobles. I think that there should be more interplay, and not have everyone put into a noble/non-noble schematic.  At least, move # 3 in-line with # 2 & 1 and let the bluebloods in # 4 be extra special.  

 Oh, I don't know...

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Haedrian

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Re: Social Structure
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2007, 09:05:00 am »

%understood : .5%

Can you clean it up a bit? It sounds interesting ...

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Dreamer

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Re: Social Structure
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2007, 09:26:00 am »

He wants a more diverse class system, as he thinks the peasant/noble system is less than exemplerary. He proposes four different class tiers:

Peasants (Haulers, recruits), Skilled Workers (Craftsdwarves, Masons, et cetera), Managers (Bookkeeper, Manager, Dungeon Keeper... Nobles who actually do something), and True Nobles (Kings, Dukes, et cetera).

He adds that it is impossible to raise higher than tier one or two if you were born into that tier, though I think it would be fun to just assign some random peasant as the new king (Since the old one died in a mysterious flooding accident).


I, personally, think that the system would be mostly aesthetic: It seems everything would work the exact same, but with more distinction between who's important and who's not, with no real effect on gameplay other than perception.  It would be a nice addition eventually, in my opinion, but it's not completely required...  Dwarven nobility may actually include managers and such, while human nobility only encompasses kings, nobles, and their descendants.

But that's just me.

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Haedrian

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Re: Social Structure
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2007, 09:32:00 am »

Oh, thank you.
-

In effect, once you get the economy, the peasants (haulers ect) and craftsmen WILL get seperated, since the haulers wont be able to afford much.

Also, as nobility seems to work out, probably the noble is a noble because his father's father's father's uncle's wife's cousin's pet dog was a noble, so I doubt they'd want a peasant who became a noble due to an accident...

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Twilight

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Re: Social Structure
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2007, 03:05:00 pm »

Hello,
  yeah, but why the economy (i.e., pay for stuff) exemption for the #3/white collar/manager (bookkeeper, etc.)?  Make them pay.  The true nobles would be happy at one less person not paying into an economy that they control.  
   Good point: human noble system not necessarily the same as dwarven nobles.  But, managers, bookkeepers, dungeon masters, etc. are not (except in really shaky societies already crumbling) hereditary, they are competence based (this, also, is in the true nobles' best interests).  The useless (?) blue bloods are a small elite.  The managers are their chief servants.
   I suppose that this is more for future development (individual dwarf careers; power to appoint to positions, not just careers - like the Royal Guard).  Still, it's fun to mull-over (hey, Toady demands as much realism as feasible).
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AlanL

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Re: Social Structure
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2007, 04:13:00 pm »

I think that the mobility between the classes should be influenced by the player. I like the 4 tier system brought up, but I think dead nobles should be replaced by the player if the player wants the noble replaced. I think all nobles should have some sort of job with a related skill, so for instance the manager could have a manager skill that would effect the accuracy of assessments and how rapid/effective orders are, so say a dabbling manager might only tell you your entire created wealth is around 200000 and take forever to issue workshop orders, whereas a legendary manager would tell you your entire created wealth is exactly 239546, break it down into all the categories, give you a prediction of what your wealth will be and records of what it was beforehand, and get orders sent at a rate rivalling the modern internet. I think that the player should be able to basically pick anyone to be the new manager, and what the player goes by determines what the governments like, for instance, some players might pick any worker to replace a dead manager, some players might only pick double-legendaries or above. Normally, teir 4 nobles would just arrive, but if the player is strong enough, maybe the player could kill the king on purpose and replace the king with their favorite dwarf after defeating hordes of military. Essentially, the player could cause a revolution eventually  :p Basically, I would suggest any system that gives the player more choices and more freedom.
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Twilight

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Re: Social Structure
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2007, 04:39:00 pm »

Hello,
 AlanL - taking it to its logical conclusion!  Yeah, we should be having more fun and more options and more unexpectedness with the DF social structure.  Currently, you play with the craftdwarvs (#1 & 2), dialogue with the managers (# 3), and get exasperated with the true nobles (# 4; I agree - they shouldn't be useless.  I believe that Toady is planning to add functions to each, sometime).  Yeah, we could be having a lot more fun!
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axus

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Re: Social Structure
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2007, 05:18:00 pm »

Well maybe eventually we can define our own social structure?  Or rebel and form our own kingdom?  Then we could make communist or capitalist or fascist dwarves.  Now that I think of it that way, Nobles are really just a gameplay element to encourage us to rebel, its just that rebellion wasn't implemented yet  ;)
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