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[Grumman]

I'm not saying the latter two are not important, but you have to agree that as far as the game goes, they are still less important than being able to strip-mine a surface layer without worrying about random dwarves getting stuck in the pit (or on the other side of wherever you're digging) until you remember to make a ramp or a stair.

Like I said, this is only a problem because you were using the wrong tool for the job. There was nothing stopping you using nothing but ramps or staircases for this sort of work.

[G-Flex]

Of course it can be circumvented. The point is that it takes a fairly marginal amount of greater time/effort to do so.

[Sean Mirrsen]

I'm not saying the latter two are not important, but you have to agree that as far as the game goes, they are still less important than being able to strip-mine a surface layer without worrying about random dwarves getting stuck in the pit (or on the other side of wherever you're digging) until you remember to make a ramp or a stair.

Like I said, this is only a problem because you were using the wrong tool for the job. There was nothing stopping you using nothing but ramps or staircases for this sort of work.

Well, of course I could designate a field of underground upward ramps, or maybe even downward, then upward staircases, which I did resort to periodically in the previous versions, but guess which is more straightforward and logical to dig out a patch of land - going to the layer below and designating ramps, or just designating a channel? This is also not taking into account that you have to remember where and how to dig stuff this way, because you don't see where you're digging while underground.

Even though I know that it can be done otherwise, I much prefer the new way of things, and so will nearly any player new to DF. Because it makes sense, and is easier to use.

[Shades]

Of course it can be circumvented. The point is that it takes a fairly marginal amount of greater time/effort to do so.

Marginal is the key word here and removing ramps isn't slow so it will never be more than marginal. Making a change that is so aesthetically annoying for such a minor reason is silly, and now I can do one less thing in digging than I could in the previous version and nothing new.

[G-Flex]

removing ramps isn't slow

It is if they're under water/lava (or perhaps some other, rarer circumstances), and removing all of the ramps and still getting out of the resulting pit is slightly more complicated.

[Lord_Phoenix]

removing ramps isn't slow

It is if they're under water/lava (or perhaps some other, rarer circumstances), and removing all of the ramps and still getting out of the resulting pit is slightly more complicated.

Actually, it's not at all complicated to get out, actually more complicated the old way if you managed to get yourself stuck, you just dig an exit on the far side of the channel from what you're protecting after removing all the ramps.

I've had to take to cheating to get my fort to look the way it should, and not drive me crazy with channel entrance ramps, by channeling one tile wider than the main channel width at the entrance/exit, thus removing the support for the entrance edge ramps, and then filling in the resulting extra ramps with magma or water, depending on what's in the channel, giving it that nice look that it should have had to begin with.

Alternatively, I could just build wall over it, since I'm almost always building one on the spot anyway, but I don't like building stuff like that just hanging over water.

If this is gonna stay in then water/magma should hide anything on the tile, including ramps.

[G-Flex]

Do you really care that much about seeing ramps along with the water? Does that actually matter?

[Shades]

Do you really care that much about seeing ramps along with the water? Does that actually matter?

Yes.

Why else would we go to such lengths to stop it happening?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well, I can understand why some people would. For one, a single-wide ramp-channel with water would be indistinguishable from any such channel that goes into a hypothetical blue stone. But having them invisible always is also not advisable - because then you wouldn't be able to see when there's a way down underwater. This would make navigating the flooded cave complexes more difficult. And you won't be able to see when there's a way down into the water. In general, I think having ramps displayed in water is a lesser evil at the moment. Maybe later we'll have a different display for ramps, when/if the game moves away from its purely ASCII graphics, but until then I'd rather have them the current way.

Maybe there could be an alternative solution, like an ingame toggle of ramp drawing priority for this purpose, but I suspect this is needlessly complicating. There can be an easier and more elegant solution. Like background gradients, for example.

[G-Flex]

Do you really care that much about seeing ramps along with the water? Does that actually matter?

Yes.

Why else would we go to such lengths to stop it happening?

Then the solution is to stop caring so much. If you care that much about minor aesthetic problems in a game like Dwarf Fortress, there is seriously something wrong. That is not something that is significant enough to bother a reasonable person to the point of actually complaining. It simply isn't an overriding concern.

[Shades]

If you care that much about minor aesthetic problems in a game like Dwarf Fortress, there is seriously something wrong.

More than likely..

That is not something that is significant enough to bother a reasonable person to the point of actually complaining.

Clearly it is as I'm complaining about it. And the aesthetics is the main reason I'm complaining.

[G-Flex]

I said "reasonable". You're not being reasonable if the aesthetics matter that much. The aesthetics of DF are purely functional at this point, intended to display information rather than look pretty. And even if you do want to complain about how it looks, there are much, much more important things to complain about than seeing ramps below your water.

[Osmosis Jones]

IMO, I prefer the old channel designation. I hate the little flashing ramps when they're submerged, and there are a couple of situations I've encountered where it is impossible to avoid leaving a ramp without digging out a whole heap of extra rock.

That being said, it is only a miner grief, and really doesn't bother me that much. Maybe just make submerged ramps not flash?

[Sean Mirrsen]

... a miner grief...

At first I thought it was a typo. Looking again, I don't know what to think.

[Osmosis Jones]