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[DoctorZuber]

I do agree that changing channels to ramps was probably intended as a feature. However if so, it's a feature that's pissed a lot of people off (including me).

With this feature/bug? it is now no longer possible to complete a true channel system for handling magma or water, you always have to have at least that one pesky ramp stashed somewhere with a floor tile built over it for safety and or your own personal sanity. I HATE THIS!!!

If this is truly intended as a feature, it should have gotten a new command all it's own instead of just redesigning/breaking an existing command.

[Grocer]

This change simply makes channeling duplicate the behavior of digging ramps.  Either remove channeling completely or revert channeling to what it was (we don't need two options that do exactly same thing and carving out a ramp previously could both a) be done from above and b) removed the tile above the ramp).

The biggest problem with the change is that there's no clean (and safe) way to breach a magma pipe or a body of water now, although with the new magma pipes having smooth vertical walls (i.e., the width doesn't change) then the previous method (channel out the edge from a safe location above) only works at the top level of the pipe anyway.  Perhaps there could be a method whereby a mechanic could build a breaching mechanism that cleanly removes a stone wall?  It's not like it would be beyond the tech level - narrow a wall putting in supports as you go, use a lever to remove the supports and presto!  A breach without sacrificing a dwarf.  That doesn't seem more complex than current traps, though perhaps it's a two step process requiring a mechanic and a miner.  That's assuming the behavior isn't simply reverted to what it used to be.

As for getting your dwarves trapped while channeling it's not that hard to rescue them and paying attention while you're designating means you never have the problem.

EDIT:  Though I suppose you could still breach 'safely' with a carefully set-up cavein.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

The aesthetic maniac will hate me for this, but at least water can be breached completely safely by digging a downstairs-upstairs set. The upstairs will be dug from above and the dwarf will NOT go to the lower floor.

I haven't checked magma since I am far from reaching that, but I would assume it is also safe in that way.

Deathworks

[SmileyMan]

People saying that channelling is the same as ramp-digging are failing to notice that this is only the case when underneath the channel is solid.

Digging a hole in a floor over an excavated area is still channeling.

[random51]

People saying that channelling is the same as ramp-digging are failing to notice that this is only the case when underneath the channel is solid.

Digging a hole in a floor over an excavated area is still channeling.

I tried a similar argument in the DF irc channel, the complainers wouldn't admit that there exist any conditions where the new channel doesn't do exactly the same thing as the dig ramp command.  There are none so blind as those who will not see.

...and hey, I prefer the old channel too, but I think the new style is intended, not a bug.

[Caesar]

Personally I think the worst thing it (for now) did to me was to have a miner 'channel' a ramp and then happily stepping into the now filled-with-magma tile.

He was cremated.

[SmileyMan]

Personally I think the worst thing it (for now) did to me was to have a miner 'channel' a ramp and then happily stepping into the now filled-with-magma tile.

He was cremated.

When the genetics gets implemented, at least you'll have the satisfaction of seeing stupidity getting evolved out of your dwarves!

[Grumman]

People saying that channelling is the same as ramp-digging are failing to notice that this is only the case when underneath the channel is solid.

Digging a hole in a floor over an excavated area is still channeling.

What you fail to notice is that this doesn't actually provide any new functionality. You can do the exact same thing in a different order by just sending someone down into the pit to remove the ramps, and it has the exact same drawback: that you cannot do this without either leaving one ramp, or leaving a dwarf down there.

[Another]

For now dwarves seem to have evolved towards increasing stupidity relative to the previous version where they at least had brains to not incinerate or drown themselves upon finishing their irrigation systems or magma forge complexes.

[Squirrelloid]

People saying that channelling is the same as ramp-digging are failing to notice that this is only the case when underneath the channel is solid.

Digging a hole in a floor over an excavated area is still channeling.

Yes, if the area underneath is empty, it works like old channeling.  The point is it should work like old channeling *all the time*, because when it doesn't work like old channeling its just a duplicate 'dig ramp'.  You couldn't even dig an up ramp if the area underneath is empty, so its not like it was possible for it to mimic the identical function in that case.

The advantage of dig up ramp and channeling having different end effects if designated on the 'same' tile (channel from above, up ramp from below) is that the one which is best suited to the job can be chosen.  When they both have the same effect, one of them becomes superfluous.

[colinmarc]

The new implementation makes perfect sense to me. There's no way for dwarves to dig out a complete channel from above without going down into the hole - thus the ramp. If you want a "clean" channel, it makes sense you would have to dig a ramp down, mine it out, then clear the roof. Without ladders, a helping hand, etc, that's the only way I can imagine to physically dig out a channel with sheer, unclimbable walls.

That said, I think a good compromise would be to revert, but require some of the digging to be done from inside the channel (below the designation), forcing you do dig down stairs or a ramp so that your dwarf can get in there to dig.

Or, since as I understand it each tile has a "roof" part (which is why down stairs break through but not up stairs, right? I'm at work so I can't verify this), you could have the "channel" command dig the roof from the tile below, just like down stairs do now, and reveal what is in the square below without digging it out. That would also force you to dig some stairs if you're making an aqueduct, and would work the same regardless of whether or not there is open space below.

[Grumman]

That said, I think a good compromise would be to revert, but require some of the digging to be done from inside the channel (below the designation), forcing you do dig down stairs or a ramp so that your dwarf can get in there to dig.

That's even worse. At least the current version means your dwarf will only get incinerated/swept away if they start being stupid. Your idea would leave the unwanted ramps and require that the dwarf stands directly in harms way as they excavate the last square.

[Wyrframe]

I have just lost my two miners to this ridiculous change in behaviour. I'm aquifer-busting in a freezing climate; I designate a 2x2 zone of the aquifer layer to be channelled. They dig a ramp, then merrily jump into the pit to dig the next one over... and get frozen in.

Worse, while there is now a solid ice wall on the level below (containing two miners, and more importantly their picks), directly above the ice walls is apparently "open space", not an ice floor. I thought that bug was fixed back in ~28.40c?

[Locus]

I'm not sure why anyone would bring realism into this, as an argument against pure channels without ramps. People can dig holes straight into the ground without huge ramps or staircases. Are you familiar with pit traps? Graves? The game is just abstracting a pre-planned way the minor climbs out of the hole. A rope, some pegs in the wall, normal climbing, whatever.


*edit* For the record, this new behavior is good in some situations. But I think we need both "channeling" (old version) and maybe... "ditch digging" (new version).

[VPellen]

I've been doing some investigating with this myself.

I think the new channelling system is less like digging a channel and more like digging a trench.

The only differences between building a ramp and digging a trench are:
A: The former is done from below, the latter is done from above.
B: You can use it to remove floor tiles that have no earth below them.
C: When digging a trench, the miner seems to avoid the trench, but when digging a ramp the miner is more than happy to stand in the trench and dig. Other dwarfs will have no issues stepping in the trench however, and once the miner is done digging, neither will he.

I actually lost a miner to C. And not in the typical "frozen in an aquifer" way.

I'd decided to build my fort into the side of a cliff you see. I'd started building from above, but I'd managed to dig out a room a little too close to the aquifer, and suddenly a every room below it was flooded. It was an inconvenience, but I worked out that what I'd do is I'd go to the room above, and mine out to the cliff face:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Then I figured what I'd do is I'd dig out a channel so that the water in the room below would be funnelled out, giving me time to get a wall up and block off the aquifer, so that I could then drain the lower levels:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It was then that I discovered that I was not digging channels, but ramps. I was initially pretty confused, but it wasn't too big a deal. After all, the water was still draining, and everything was working as intended, more or less:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That was, until my miner decided that the fastest way to get back to the stockpiles was through the channel.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)