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[nomad_delta]

Whether this is a bug or not, it was much better before.

I agree completely -- whether it was intentional or not, the previous behavior was preferable for me as well.

For example, what if I wanted to make a drawbridge with a hole underneath it so trolls can't stomp across and smash it to bits?  Before I would make a channel and then build the bridge over that.  How could I get the same effect now without leaving a dwarf in the channel after removing the ramps, which as far as I know can only be done from *inside* the channel?

I hope this is fixed soon, this actually bugs me more than any of the other issues I've encountered so far.

--nomad_delta

[Jiri Petru]

Basically, "dig channel" became "dig a hole" in the new version. People who tend to dig channels hate it. People who tend to dig holes love it. I dig holes. 

EDITed to be more useful:

In other words, the ability to designate huge areas to be channeled without the fear that the miners will kill themselves is great! I never used "dig upwards ramp" on the level below, because I didn't know about it - it soooo unintuitive. The new way is much more intuitive.

I can understand if people want to divide it into two separate designation. BUT! You can't have designation for everything - think about the clutter in the menu. "Dig a hole, dig a channel, dig an upwards ramp, dig a downwards ramp"... all of these might have sligthly different functions, but having them all would make the game (even more) clumsy, user unfriendly and hard to learn (think about me not knowing that I could use downward ramps to channel areas). I think Toady should strive for as few different designations as possible, by integrating several into one... not the other way around. More complex or very specific actions would need to use say two different designations.

[Squirrelloid]

Basically, "dig channel" became "dig a hole" in the new version. People who tend to dig channels hate it. People who tend to dig holes love it. I dig holes. 

You know, you could just designate ramps in the old version...  This adds no new functionality and takes away some.

There is no way to do something like breach a magma pipe without leaving an unsightly ramp in the current version, so this change resulted in a net loss of functionality.

[Jiri Petru]

You know, you could just designate ramps in the old version...  This adds no new functionality and takes away some.

There is no way to do something like breach a magma pipe without leaving an unsightly ramp in the current version, so this change resulted in a net loss of functionality.

Edited my post while you were typing, sorry.

But no, I didn't know that. The interface is already so full of different functions that I can't remember what every single one of them does and what the absurdly small differences are.

EDIT: And I'd say an unsightly ramp while breaching a river is necessary. You wouldn't expect a dwarf to be able to remove all the dirt before the water flows in, would you? 

[Squirrelloid]

You know, you could just designate ramps in the old version...  This adds no new functionality and takes away some.

There is no way to do something like breach a magma pipe without leaving an unsightly ramp in the current version, so this change resulted in a net loss of functionality.

Edited my post while you were typing, sorry.

But no, I didn't know that. The interface is already so full of different functions that I can't remember what every single one of them does and what the absurdly small differences are.

EDIT: And I'd say an unsightly ramp while breaching a river is necessary. You wouldn't expect a dwarf to be able to remove all the dirt before the water flows in, would you? 

I believe dwarves are good enough engineers they could find a way to temporarily block flow while they cleared enough rock or dirt that the subsequent water flow would wash out whatever remained.

[Nikov]

I believe in fundamental human goodness but you don't see me throwing out my Clausewitz.

I'd just like 'dig pit' or 'Dig Down Ramp' or some other way of including both the new and old functionality in two different commands.

[KFD]

The main problem I have with this, is that in some circumstances, a ramp will comehow count as support against cave ins, and the old way of channeling allowed easy "controlled demolition" through cave ins.

[JohnLukeG]

I don't really care if this was intended or not.  I strongly prefer having "Dig Channel" and "Dig Up Ramp" over "Dig Up Ramp" and "Dig Down Ramp".

The latter can be achieved by simply looking down one Z-level first, while you need to build a stairway down to remove the ramp if you want to dig a channel now.

[njero]

Was playing with this a bit more last night. My desire to have true channelling reimplemented is still there, but I can see why some are so fond of the downward ramping. Almost to the point where I'd prefer to have "dig channel" and "dig downward ramp." Much of the ramping I do does start from above anyhow.

Funny quirk, despite otherwise working much like ramping, you cannot dig out a room of ramps starting from the side on a lower level.

[Wolfius]

Personally I've always thought it strange that rivers and ponds have cliff-like straight sides.  How many natural bodies of water have a swimming-pool edge?  I don't see why dwarves shouldn't be able to wade a few feet into a river where they might battle carp without guaranteed drowning.  (oh and being prone/standing in water still needs to be rationalized into something.)

But that's just me.

Oh, I agree it's kinda silly. But as things stand now, ramping bodies of water tends to look bad, atleast if done haphazardly. I also like being able to see the flows, and really hate flashing tiles(seriously, anyone who suggests flashing tiles will find a carp in their toilet).

You know, you could just designate ramps in the old version...  This adds no new functionality and takes away some.

Trees. Designating ramps on soil risked collapse if there was a tree above, often because that tree grew from a sapling while the mining was underway, after you had your lumberjacks clear the area to prevent just that. Normally not much chance of that, and easily prevented, unless you frequently landscape large areas.

*ponders*

You know, I think making 'remove ramps' work from above, when designated from above, would solve most problems, without adding another designation. Tho that might be too obscure.

[Aniaas]

Perhaps if you want to dig a traversable ditch then that sould be a seperate option but if you dig a ditch it isn't all that hard to square up the sides.
My vertical plumbing used to be a few z-levels of up/down stairs with channels next to them - it worked well because the open space prevented the dwarf from digging the ground out from under his feet - now i have had eight miners bleed to death after channeling a hole and then falling into it - sustaining minor injuries each time. Maybe "Pit" should be a designation for a function that removes a floor/wall tile and any wall tiles beneath it.

[Gauphastus]

Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but am I right in thinking that some of you wouldn't mind this change so much if it weren't quite so visually unappealing?
This is just out of curiosity.

I did get a bit of use out of the old channeling function. I'll admit, I haven't played much of the latest release due mostly to the pathfinding problems. Just gonna hold off a little longer until fixes come out.

[Grocer]

This probably seems like an obvious question but I'm on a Mac and can't check it for myself yet.  Can anyone confirm that the only difference between channeling and digging a ramp now is which level the activity is designated on?  If channeling, does the miner stand on top of the tile to be channeled as they would if digging out a ramp below them?

[E-l337]

You know, I did notice this when I started channeling for my indoor Depot access, and thought to myself, "My god, this is a fucking idiotic feature!". Until I realized that, actually, it's not quite as bad as I had originally thought.

This new method of channeling makes it a lot harder for your stupid dorfs to wind up trapping themselves, because they automatically dig themselves out by leaving a ramp. When you no longer require a ramp (such as if you make it two lanes wide), it automatically removes them.

It is, however, still possible to trap your dwarves (because I did it), depending on *how* you build your channels.

As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread: ramps are built to face a single direction (at least, in regards to the channeling, it seems). So if you're channeling, dig from the OUTSIDE, work your way in. True, it becomes slightly more difficult to trap enemies (though far from impossible), but on the other hand, it can also give you a slightly better line of defense used properly.

Also, if you dig out the wall where the ramp is facing, you eliminate its support, so you are now stuck with a 'ramp' that no one (including your miners) can use, unfortunately, which is one thing I wish that could be fixed.

Yes, it is an odd function, but on the other hand, it makes strip mining a hell of a lot safer, and I think that was the main intention here, so to me it is a welcome change.

[Garrie]

Just in case this thread is linked to a bug and somebody is counting votes.

This implementation of digging a channel is too close to being redundant to be worth having as a seperate feature.

Put it back the way it was, or take it out.