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Of course not. Freedom is great.

82 (31.4%)

Heavens no! I would never deny others.

10 (3.8%)

People should be free to enjoy what they like. I'd never oppose it.

29 (11.1%)

I love denying others basic rights so I can be lazy and not edit my .init file.

55 (21.1%)

What kind of rigged poll is this? MSNBC has fairer. Also, I am pro-filth.

85 (32.6%)

Total Members Voted: 260

[Nikov]

Streamlining liquid pathfinding would probably come with the territory of mixing flows, but I appreciate that you present a rational reason. However, I've personally not seen fortress-killing lag from water flows. I suppose I could build a fortress to test...

[NW_Kohaku]

Item stacking/hauling rewrites needs to go in, regardless of all other factors, and really should be the highest of all priorities besides really game-killing bugs.  Again, however, comparing what should be a higher priority than what isn't really what we should be talking about.

Well that's where our views digress, I suppose. I think keeping track of 200 dwarves individual bi-monthly solid and liquid leavings becomes a serious CPU chore and not a lot of fun (cat poop in my hallways? NOT ON THE MICROCLINE TILE!), and given the alterative of playing with flow dynamics in sewer design, I advocate the latter. It should be possible to abstract tanning, alchemical and agricultural sewage inputs into buckets of filth rather than specifically jugs of urine or barrels of manure. I understand that you want a very advanced agriculture simulation and keeping the two seperate will be important for the nutrient cycle, but in a compromise with computing limits and player sensibilities, I think abstracting it to filth flows is the way to go.

I thought we were talking about "yellow filth" and "brown filth"...  (Or was that just Toady, and you're talking about consolidating?)

So anyway, what you're saying is that it's too much of an FPS drain to have specific items that get dropped into chamberpots or cesspools, but that having a new liquid flow is less of one?  I'm not sure that will be true, as liquid flows aren't exactly the most efficient algorithms, even if having a few hundred items will certainly add to FPS drain, as well.

I think it's certainly still possible to have latrines and even sewers, just that it models contaminated water, and not a full fluid all to itself.  (Sewers don't even flow without some dilution by water, I don't think.)

As for "NOT ON THE MICROCLINE", that would be the same whether it was a fluid or an item, wouldn't it?  You'd either have the ability to get animals to go in places that are acceptable, or they'd just go wherever, and fluid or item has no bearing on this.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

all features have the potential to affect the fps, and all features usually include changes to the game mechanics to accommodate any incompatibilities

i can easily see filth as a contaminant dwarves would either drop on running water, a designated pit, or in a constructed bucket that the lowliest dwarves of your fortress would haul to the gong pit... i don't se it hurting fps or requiring a major hauling overhaul

[Areyar]

Personally I am pro faeces.

I think a contaminant is the way to go, coupled with contaminants being more effectively transported or diluted by water.
Abstraction is also very important. One can try to simulate everything, but that does not make for a good game or even a good simulation.
I'm not sure tracking individual nutrients would be fun or usefull, a generalized fertilizer suffices.
As far as 'filth' probably just accumulates on everything alive and needs to be cleaned off in order to remain presentable (and healthy!). 

The best place to first test generation of filth in large quantities and effluate I suspect would be the butchers'. (need bucket of water to clean workshop of blood and other fluids, need drainage possibly, soap?)

Tracked blood/puss/etc should have a chance to turn to a generic grime.
(I don't really care that much really whose blood my dorf is covered in past the fourth spatter.
As an aside, this spatter could be somehow condensed into lightly spattered/spashed/covered in GRIME[click to expand] : dwarf blood spatter: left foot left toe, dwarf vomit: beard, dwarf vomit : left ear, etc)
Maybe converting various contaminants into grime will put a load on CPU, but wouldnt it also reduce computingload in the long run?

It does put a damper on CSI Dwarf Fortress though.

[Nikov]

Yes, my initial proposal was for generic brown-colored "filth" to be a consolidated substance. I see little point in seperating them; sewage is sewage. As one substance it halves the CPU load regardless of how it becomes implemented. I do think it should be a flow in and of itself, so simple pit latrines will eventually fill if they have no outlet. Chamber pots, etc I also see no need for. Dwarves are a fairly communal sort, so building public bathrooms seems simple enough. It also reduces jobs and objects (chamber pot emptying might well be the new coin hauling oherwise). Water diverted from a brook or pumped through some other system will be one way to clear the latrine pits, letting it evaporate into miasma and filth contaminants on a floodplain is a more primative option. The truely lazy could just atom-smash it all away under a bridge or some other clever mechanism. And since you could toggle it off, much like we toggle temprature, sieges and weather, people with slower computers who couldn't handle a simple water channel going from an aquifer, under the latrine zones and to the edge of the map can simply do without.

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, I suppose I wasn't thinking specifically about the problem of having to give a player a toilet that overflows.  In terms of ways of doing this with items, this would require some sort of limit on how much material can be placed on a single tile.  If we are talking about a chamberpot, it's as simple as having a "full" tag, but a latrine that leaves waste in a ditch would encounter quantum stockpiling problems.

The only thing I can say to that is "fix the quantum stockpiling problem", (making it so only X units of material can fit in a single tile, and will refuse to allow any more items or creatures in when that "full" state is hit) which would be yet another pre-requisite to doing this, alongside some of the other stockpiling and stacking problems.  Of course, just to point this out, now we're comparing "make Toady do work on stockpile issues as a prerequisite" versus "make Toady do work on fluid code as a prerequisite", so the demand that Toady do some prerequisite work is still there (and not necessarily easy to compare) either way.

That said, I'd honestly just as soon not have a liquid that you really could drown a goblin in, but I suppose it is necessary to have such a thing if we want to make a player seriously consider sewer construction.

[Kogut]

That said, I'd honestly just as soon not have a liquid that you really could drown a goblin in, but I suppose it is necessary to have such a thing if we want to make a player seriously consider sewer construction.

I have sewer in my fortress. Filth implementation is useful for farming (and "I want to kill x in horrible way" people), but not necessary for sewers.

[Areyar]

hmm.
I'm still prefering contaminant that can contaminate water, I think contaminants already do this and the amount is sort of tracked as well.
Possibly the highest concentration of contaminant possible could be 'harvestable' or turn into a seperate fluid. But I dislike creating a seperate fluid for one that is just a highly adulterated version of water.

Unless a 'sewage-liquid' has special properties, I don't really see a need for it.
-creates miasma.
-spawns vermin?
-can trigger syndromes as contaminant or imbibed.
-excelerates rotting. (-miasma could do this too)
-rivers/pools of filth/slime in the happy place.
-um. use as clay. paint. sell as food.

[Jacos]

1) Build massive tower.
2) Build latrine on balcony.
3) Forbid door.
4) Make sewage pipes to drop filth underneath balcony.
5) Build trade depot under balcony.
6) Wait for Elves to come.
7) Unforbid door.
??
9) HOOZAH!

[zwei]

Any word on modding it in with new egg/nestbox system?

[Nikov]

That wouldn't do anything except make useless 'dwarven eggs' that need to be quantum-dumped.

[Lungfish]

To be frank, I think the main reason why sewage ought to be in is that irl sewage disposal is massively important in the establishment of civilisation. You can't form big, healthy cities without sewers. Knowing where the water will eventually end up is almost as important to know where it comes from.

Agreed! It seems a distant goal, but sanitation would be a fantastic challenge for that fortress that has everything. If the Romans did it, could my industrious dwarves? Having one's own latrine would make for a happy thought, while waiting in line for the public facility would be a good chance for striking up a conversation with a friend and improving social skills. Poo also makes good fertilizer, and all those animals running around pooping would add a reason to have dwarves dedicated to cleaning. Cleaning isn't really easy. You should be able to be a legendary cleaner.

[forsaken1111]

That wouldn't do anything except make useless 'dwarven eggs' that need to be quantum-dumped.

If I recall, the result of modding the egg's shell to be a liquid was a spatter of contaminant sitting on the floor rather than an egg. Could work?

(Of course the dwarves would never ever breed then.)

[Areyar]

Then you'd mod in a custom reaction that takes
[CLAY_MAT]:5 and
[BOOZE]:1
to create 1 dwarf child, that then adopts a parent like cats do.

[Urist McCheeseMaker]

I doubt dwarves can create life... not even implying the philosophical problems, a reaction-produced child would have no genetics information.