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[Misterstone]

Hello,

As everyone knows, all alcohol is produced right now from a single workshop- the "still", which produces drinks such as rum, ale, beer, wine, etc. etc.

I would like to propose that there actually be two workshops for creating alcoholic drinks.  A) the Brewery and B) the Still.  

As you probably know, in real life, a brewery or winery creates fermented beverages such as beer, mead, cider, wine, etc.  A still, on the other hand, produces distilled alcohol (what you might think of as hard liquor) by taking a fermented mash and reducing the water content through distillation.  What I propose in game terms is that the brewery workshop would make distilled drinks such as beer/wine, and that you could then order these to be processed further at a still, which would condense them into stronger liquor.  I don't think its necessary to require wood fuel or other fuel for this process because, after all, cooking food doesn't require fuel in the game.

Thus, a brewery would create things such as Dwarf Beer from wheat, dwarf mead from sweet pods (or syrup, or sugar), various kinds of dwarf wine from fruits or whatever.  The still would then make these into a liquor type, ie. beer becomes whiskey, wine becomes brandy, mead becomes rum, or whatever.

Obviously, distilleries don't work exactly like this in real life (for instance, you wouldn't want to drink the fermented mash that is used to make whiskey), but I think that it would make the game economy more varied and fun.  It would allow dwarves to stockpile more alcohol with fewer barrels- efficiency that any dwarf would appreciate.  Perhaps it could increase in quality while in the barrel (similar to how liquor is aged in real life).  Also, it would make more sense for dwarves to have the "hard stuff" in those flasks that they will presumably be carrying around at some point, rather than nasty warm beer.  Finally, it would give you a nice product to trade with or bestow on happy rulers.

Hope this isn't an old suggestion or idea- I didn't find it on the dev page, or in the forums.

[ July 18, 2007: Message edited by: Misterstone ]

[axus]

I think it would be a pain to have 2 buildings, having more than one way to make an alchoholic beverage isn't a bad idea though.  There is a mod to add a lot more plants and beverages.  Something good for the game to keep track of would be alchohol content by volume in beverages, would be needed to handle drunkeness properly.

[0x517A5D]

quote:Originally posted by axus:
<STRONG>I think it would be a pain to have 2 buildings</STRONG>

It's been suggested that workshops should be upgradable, for better quality or faster production.  That would fit well here.  Can't upgrade the brewery to a still until you have metal to make a boiler and glass to make a distillation column.  Sound reasonable?

0x517A5D

[Tamren]

I made that post on upgraded workshops awile back. I stopped updating it because the next release is going to change things a LOT. So anything i suggest now might be invalidated.

Anyhow, the brewery and distillery should defenitly be seperate buildings. In a distillery you boil liquids until they evaporate, then either condense the steam and collect it, or collect whatever is left in the pot after the liquid boils away. I confess i dont know jack about the fine details of brewing booze, but im pretty sure distilling the brew makes it more potent and changes the type of booze you end up with.

If the upgradeable workshops were put into the game you could designate a section of floor space as the "booze making area". All you really need to begin with is a pot, a fire and some barrels.

Later on you would upgrade it with more varied tools. So you could make a large fully equipped brewery that also has a still in it. On top of that you could deticate a corner of the brewery to the manufacture and storage of barrels.

[ July 19, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

[Pnx]

There is one flaw in the logic here.

Just because it has wine, or beer, or rum in the name doesn't mean it's not strong. It’s dwarven wine and dwarven beer, you think that a species that needs alcohol would settle for a weak drink? No! Dwarves like their booze strong as themselves!

If it is not sometimes considered a poison by other species then it is not a true dwarven drink!

[ July 19, 2007: Message edited by: Pnx ]

[Tallim]

In my opinion, based on real life stuff. Distilling should be quicker than brewing, as brewing requires a fermenting period which should be set regardless of skill.

Perhaps if distilling produced less output but was quicker than brewing, and brewing required a new stockpile to ferment in barrels but produced a larger bulk for the input materials.

Drink quality could change depending on type and ageing. Ancient wines would be far more valuable than recent vintages. Year stamps are already applied to coins, so why not to booze?

[Haedrian]

I really don't like this idea.

Brewing is a very IMPORTANT task for dwarves...

Breaking it up into two processes will cause problems in my opinion. You'd end up with a lot of 'in between' goods, and not enough drinks.

[Misterstone]

quote:Originally posted by Haedrian:
<STRONG>I really don't like this idea.

Brewing is a very IMPORTANT task for dwarves...

Breaking it up into two processes will cause problems in my opinion. You'd end up with a lot of 'in between' goods, and not enough drinks.</STRONG>

Not true... in the outline I gave above, the "in-between good" is simply drinkable brewed alcohol, which could be worked one step forward to make hard likker.

[Griz]

quote:Originally posted by Misterstone:
<STRONG>

Not true... in the outline I gave above, the "in-between good" is simply drinkable brewed alcohol, which could be worked one step forward to make hard likker.</STRONG>

it'd be pretty much unworkable unless the kitchen screen was expanded to include drink/don't-drink settings for the various liquor products. without that, it would be like trying to make meals from booze where the job gets cancelled constantly because someone wants to drink from the barrel that the cook wants.

[Pnx]

Hmmmm I think I might change my sig. But in anycase I think that my statement still stands and that dwarves will ALWAYS make only the strongest drinks.

[Misterstone]

quote:Originally posted by Pnx:
<STRONG>Hmmmm I think I might change my sig. But in anycase I think that my statement still stands and that dwarves will ALWAYS make only the strongest drinks.</STRONG>

That's why they need to be able to distill hard liquor!

You realize that once a brewed beverage gets to a certain concentration of alcohol (around 15% I think?), the yeast is unable to continue to reproduce and the fermentation process stops?  Of course, I guess dwarves could use some kind of super-funky cave fungus that can survive high alcohol concentrations... that's what the Chinese did, apparently.  But they still chose to distill stuff as well, eventually!

[Haedrian]

Anyone who has special crops which grow in the darkness of a cave can have magic yeast that survives high ethanol concentrations.

Dwarven yeast anyone? *hic*

[John Hopoate]

quote:Originally posted by Misterstone:
<STRONG>You realize that once a brewed beverage gets to a certain concentration of alcohol (around 15% I think?), the yeast is unable to continue to reproduce and the fermentation process stops?  Of course, I guess dwarves could use some kind of super-funky cave fungus that can survive high alcohol concentrations... that's what the Chinese did, apparently.  But they still chose to distill stuff as well, eventually!</STRONG>

This stuff will allow you to make 20% alcohol "wines" and "beers" (I use those terms very loosely) without any special effort:
http://www.turbo-yeast.com/

There's a 24% alcohol commercial beer that apparently doesn't taste bad:
http://www.realbeer.com/library/beerbreak/archives/beerbreak20020214.php
http://www.internetwines.com/rws28347.html

I have no idea what's wrong with these URLs.....maybe it's just the preview feature stuffing up.

[Axehilt_VuP]

KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) is an oft-quoted design philosophy, and one which is frequently said in a variety of different ways.  Splitting up alchohol-related tasks to two separate workshop types without adding significant amounts of new gameplay would only make the game more complicated without much purpose.

Upgradeable workshops seems like a vastly superior solution, if people want to see more varied achohol-related tasks (which is a very good suggestion if it adds new gameplay: aka some alchohol is brewed instantly while other types take time to "age", gaining quality over time.)

[Misterstone]

Well, I guess it is kind of not very classy to bump an old suggestion I made a long time ago, but has this been given any more thought?  I still think that distilled spirits need a separate task, if not their own workshop; they should be considered high-end value-added items imho.  Did anyone bring this up again?

Also, the idea of adding a date and maker stamp to alcohol barrels (proposed by Tallim) would be pretty dayum cool.  Sorry if this has been bandied about many times already; I just wanted to give the idea another run through the suggestions mill.