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[Nerserus]

On the reverse argument, this isn't just frail bastards we're talking about, in cases like punching things huge in comparison to Dwarves I kinda get that it'd be almost useless...But even so. These guys know what they're doing, what with being the very best at what they do, as for inexperienced wrestlers taking on Elephants, no I don't expect the wrestlers to win, the Legends might get lucky however.

But the Elephant isn't a soldier with a copper shortsword going on a killing spree, it's kinda wrestling, it's doing unarmed combat and naturally has the upper hand due to size and strength, and naturally should beat the wrestler dwarves.

Against goblins which are incredibly frail, I can easily picture their bones being broken even in their armor. Same for many races ( Antmen and the like. )

[Libelnon]

I would have thought antmen would be quite tough, wrapped in all that chitin.

[jerank]

After watching an untained dwarf punch a forgotten beast to death in three hits, then go on a genocide spree against the polar bears in the area, I don't think unarmed combat is underpowered in any way. Strength just seems to rule all. With enough training (and anti-skill-decay editing), a wrestler can twist the limbs off a bronze colossus, they just need a lot more of it then any other class.

[jei]

You said it.

Dwarven crossbowmen are incredibly incompetent and weak when compared to goblin ones, even when trained.
They are a waste of dorftroops now.

Also they quickly die of thirst, even when carrying drinks, but can still find themselves a place to sleep when sleepy.
Why do they get thirsty so fast when in the military?
They hardly ever follow orders properly now, but still die of thirst when on duty. -- Why not get them to refuse orders and go get a drink too?

 I don't understand why dorf AI shouldn't be a bit smarter for military dudes. Self preservation should be a priority. -- Share the drinks and food among the squad or something. or have them "can't follow order" "getting a drink" and resupply themselves when too thirsty or hungry.

Having to babysit stationed dorfs to not get thirsty while having them shoot arrows at goblins is annoying as hell as the process usually takes several seasons to kill a few goblins with arrows and dorfs tend to die of thirst before the simple and easy duckshoot task is completed.

I had a squad of 25 dorfs spend 1-2 seasons to shoot over 2500 bolts at some 20+ goblins with only a few casualties among the goblins. Admittedly the gobos were armed and equipped, but due to heavy thirst casualties i had to have them finished by axe squad.
All the squad were marksdwarves by the end of this "training" but they were still totally useless in the next siege. None of them could kill, or even stop, a single invader, though a couple of the invaders were bruised before storming the fort.

So I call for equality in goblin crossbowmen and dorf crossbowmen capabilities. And also in thirst-endurability. It is a shame that well equipped dwarves can't stand in one place longer, or equally long, to goblin invaders without shamelessly succumbing to thirst and dying of dehydration.

[mrtspence]

You said it.

Dwarven crossbowmen are incredibly incompetent and weak when compared to goblin ones, even when trained.
They are a waste of dorftroops now.

Also they quickly die of thirst, even when carrying drinks, but can still find themselves a place to sleep when sleepy.
Why do they get thirsty so fast when in the military?
They hardly ever follow orders properly now, but still die of thirst when on duty. -- Why not get them to refuse orders and go get a drink too?

 I don't understand why dorf AI shouldn't be a bit smarter for military dudes. Self preservation should be a priority. -- Share the drinks and food among the squad or something. or have them "can't follow order" "getting a drink" and resupply themselves when too thirsty or hungry.

Having to babysit stationed dorfs to not get thirsty while having them shoot arrows at goblins is annoying as hell as the process usually takes several seasons to kill a few goblins with arrows and dorfs tend to die of thirst before the simple and easy duckshoot task is completed.

I had a squad of 25 dorfs spend 1-2 seasons to shoot over 2500 bolts at some 20+ goblins with only a few casualties among the goblins. Admittedly the gobos were armed and equipped, but due to heavy thirst casualties i had to have them finished by axe squad.
All the squad were marksdwarves by the end of this "training" but they were still totally useless in the next siege. None of them could kill, or even stop, a single invader, though a couple of the invaders were bruised before storming the fort.

So I call for equality in goblin crossbowmen and dorf crossbowmen capabilities. And also in thirst-endurability. It is a shame that well equipped dwarves can't stand in one place longer, or equally long, to goblin invaders without shamelessly succumbing to thirst and dying of dehydration.

Crossbows are le fail in melee. I had 20 marksdwarves with wooden crossbows and full steel armour killed by a goblin lasher with a shattered hip, legs, and upper arms. Turns out whips hit with something like 12 times the force of a warhammer (the next-best weapon at busting up people in armour), so I can understand taking losses, but still, the gobbo's silk cape deflected all of the melee blows with the crossbows.

HOWEVER! I put some steel bolts on a well-trained marksdwarf, and the ease at which he slew enemies was appalling. Crossbows are no longer the super-effective, no-training-necessary defense for any fort, but in the right hands (and with steel or better bolts), they will still seriously mess stuff up. They go through armour very well and get outstanding penetration (had a bolt sever a gobbo's spine through the front of its chest and iron chain).

Don't dismiss them altogether. 

[jei]

You would think 9 dwarves with at least a slightly military training and leather armor could finish a civilian before they died of thirst, which I now expect every second.

Yeah, dying of thirst is probably among the most common causes of death. I think the AI should be enabled to let the dorfs get a drink, considering how they go 100+ steps out of their way and stations to walk against orders to an ambush now. Annoying builtin stupidity and dying due to thirst even if drinks are nearby.... is very annoying. And not fun.

[unks]

I just updated from d40 and started a new fort with some cheap materials to make steel armor slash weapons thinking this would hold whatever goblins at bay for at least a season while I got established. By the time the first five raiders showed up, spears in hand, I had one dwarf in full steel plate with a steel mace and several others in half steel armor with cross-bows or axes. By the time they left, every single dwarf was dead and not one goblin was seriously injured.

I'd say that's a little under-powered, no matter how you look at it.

[blizzerd]

wresling should be an easy way to train dwarves into using armor and give them an advantage above the guy that does not have a strong wrestling base imo

like its a fighting skill, but in battle it should be more something an axedwarf has extra then something a dwarf relies on to survive the battle

something like Krav Maga the israeli armymen get instructed, and while they still die from guns (lol) it gives them the clear advantage in close quarter combat

[tsen]

One of the big issues is that stat and skill rusting occur VERY quickly. I don't have a lot of problems with my military because they train year round ALL the time, with zero breaks ever.

[Ranzear]

I strongly feel that everything is related to skill decay. I had a Wrestler duo in 31.09 constantly sparring and occasionally going out to rip the heads off of goblins. They were in the upper tiers of strength (one was 'very strong', the other 'mighty') and were more than capable fighters, so as mentioned strength is definitely a major factor in wrestling effectiveness.

Then I had them stand on duty in the caverns for perhaps a season or two, which was totally uneventful and they didn't even see a single spider, and then they were both killed by a freakin' goat.

Right now Strength is tied to both damage dealing and muscle tissue thickness! I think it is decaying so rapidly and harshly that their tissue thickness disappears and that is what makes them so vulnerable to cutting and piercing weapons.

I don't think wrestling has changed at all, but instead our dwarves aren't retaining the massive strength and toughness garnered by the activity rate of training Wrestling. Now having a cap on attributes is likely a contributor as well.

[Levi]

I haven't been able to get a decent military running in a while.  Every update I check to see if there has been any military bug fixes, but so far no luck.  I hope its fixed soon. 

[darkflagrance]

I haven't been able to get a decent military running in a while.  Every update I check to see if there has been any military bug fixes, but so far no luck.  I hope its fixed soon. 

The military works fine now, but the interface is still the same.

[Levi]

I haven't been able to get a decent military running in a while.  Every update I check to see if there has been any military bug fixes, but so far no luck.  I hope its fixed soon. 

The military works fine now, but the interface is still the same.

Hrm, my military never seems to gain much skills and gets slaughtered pretty often.  And crossbowmen never seem to work quite right.

[darkflagrance]

I haven't been able to get a decent military running in a while.  Every update I check to see if there has been any military bug fixes, but so far no luck.  I hope its fixed soon. 

The military works fine now, but the interface is still the same.

Hrm, my military never seems to gain much skills and gets slaughtered pretty often.  And crossbowmen never seem to work quite right.

Oh yeah, crossbowmen are very buggy.

The military not gaining skill might not be a bug though ... that's what danger rooms are for.

[Kaze]

I made a squad of seven axedwarfs and used the "Danger Room" technique to get them all up to Legendary in Fighting, Dodge, Shield, Armor and Axe. Even though this can probably be considered an exploit (but seriously, the military system is pretty broken, you'll get sieged before you can even get your first proper squad up if you have the "train" normally They just stand around preparing for demonstration 80% of the time, 10% they actually train and the remaining 10% they are on break, anyways..) but I can tell you that these 7 dwarves in iron gear have successful obliterated two goblin sieges (probably around 10 gobbos each in total) without any outside help and not taking one single hit. They have done the same with a forgotten beast, slayed that bad boy in two seconds. Didn't even have time to zoom in on the fight. None of them even has a scratch.

So yeah the problem here is that either you do it the intended way and it wont work very well or you do it exploitive way and it becomes waaaay to effective. I'd wish there was some middle ground here.