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Author Topic: War and Slavery  (Read 3703 times)

Jaiya

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War and Slavery
« on: July 16, 2007, 08:54:00 pm »

War and Slavery!

I did a search of the forums for topics where slavery came up, but there was no post or thread that addressed slavery in a way I wanted to - or addressed it with ideas 1 to 33 along with it, causing it to get minimal attention. So! After making clear that the idea of REAL LIFE slavery is bad, much like real life slaughtering of kittens purely so you can make totems out of their skulls* is bad, I'd like to share with you why I like the idea of slavery in DF!

First of all, I'm pro-slavery in Dwarf Fortress. When your Dwarves (or any other race as time goes on) begin having more complicated relationships with other nations, cultures and races, war becomes more and more likely.

War can be either a constant; the war against the goblin clans. There's never peace, nor any officially signed diplomatic decleration of war - it just is. The so called 'war' against less sentient monsters, who roam in packs but have no proper civilized aspects to them.

Or, war can be a bit more civilized; a war against the Elves for your genocide of entire forests, a war against an expanding human kingdom, a war against an organization - an alliance of wronged and greedy merchants, even a war against a clan of Dwarves whom have done you a great wrong.

For our example, let's say that you are engaged in the latter - a campaign against a human kingdom over a nearby source of iron. In combat, especially between proper armies, enabling your soldiers to not kill disabled soldiers in favor of capturing them is a must. Prisoners of war would have to be taken care of (or they could decide not to, and starve them out right there) - they'd have to eat and drink, be designated a place to sleep (be it the ground or a bed) and they'd have to be given protection. Protection from them hurting themselves (attempts at escaping) and protecting them from foolish outsider attempts at the same. Taking prisoners might even cause other nations to be a bit happier, seeing how you prefer saving lives instead of taking them.

Then, once prisoners would have been gathered up in a prison, either in the field or back at the Fortress, a number of options would rise to the player.

1) She could order their execution!
  This may seem horrible to many 'good' players, but honestly - I make totems out of dead kittens, and many players don't think twice about 'indoor plumbing' for pesky but innocent dwarf nobles. Kinslaying! Why would they treat their prisoners any better? Especially when this can give a very clear message to -everyone-. Don't mess with THIS Fortress! We punch elephants and kill the prisoners! This would especially impact nations/races with close ties to the victims, and any/most members of the victim's races. For added demoralization, specific bodyparts can be gathered and sent back to the human kingdom. If a castle is undersiege, the dead could even form as ammo for our catapults. Executing prisoners is viewed as much, much worse than executing them in battle, as they are now unarmed, defenseless and legally considered as civilians - so to speak.

2) He could trade them back to their leaders.
  Just how valuable is Swordsman Dan to his king, even after having lost an arm or an ear? How about 50 Dan's? Demanding a tribute or a diplomatic pact (even a peace treaty) in trade for the lives of the king's men can be a very, very strong move. Should the king accept, the whole thing is treated like a proper trade. Either the king sends unarmed caravans to pick up his men, or the dwarves send a caravan of their own. However, should the king refuse a deal that his people would consider fair and just, they might become terribly demoralized. Tantrums, strikes and melancholy with the prisoners families! The horror of it all! A king refusing to trade 1 sheep for every 1 prisoner might risk riots!

3) She could set them free.
  Unarmed, with all their weapons and armor being taken by the Dwarves, these prisoners could be released into the wilds - to survive at the mercy of the land, so to speak. This could be done enmasse (possibly risking them to band up and return) or in small numbers. This could be done anywhere, provided a caravan could be sent there to drop them off. If they'd be set free near the borders of their homeland, this could be considered a powerful gesture of good will - the Dwarves of this fortress are not evil, unlike their human counterparts!

4) He could enslave them.
  Cheap, basic workforce. Livespan is cut down dramatically, they only eat half the food dwarves do, drink no alcohol, are dependant on water to get through the day and need no luxuries. All you need is a small(ish) force of slavers, armed dwarves who look over the slaves and dish out beatings. This would be frowned upon by friendly nations, and the rest of their race would cry out with rage!


Which brings us to the slaves! The way I imagine them is ...

1) A slave eats half as much as a Dwarf. A slave will not be fed any food above 'low quality' stuffs, unless no low quality foodstuffs are available - and even then, only if the player says so. Some nobles might affect this, in case of starvation amongst the slaves. "Let them eat cake!"

2) A slave never, ever drinks alcohol unless as a reward for good service over the years OR if the player says so. However, a slave would be [WATER_DEPENDANT] or somesuch. If they're not allowed to drink, they slow down considerably. The need for wells grows with the number of slaves.

3) A slave can do no jobs beyond what might be considered 'menial', and no job can do the job at a skill level higher than .. well, 'plain', I guess. Should he be a miner, his skill could never be higher than 'Miner'. A slave can do the following things:
a: Hauling of all kinds.
b: Cleaning.
c: Cleaning.
d: Woodcutting. (Counts double when it comes to slavers needed for this group of slaves)
e: Mining. (Counts double.)
f: Smoothing. (NOT engraving!)
g: Bridge-building, road building and the such.

4) A slave must be in the presence of a slaver. Should the slave somehow slip out of a slaver's sight, it may be flagged as hostile - except most dwarves wont shy away from roughing the slave up and returning it to the slaver ... who'd rough them up even more.

5) A slave may be bought by a noble, but only one per noble! A slave belonging to a noble basically becomes a personal hauler. Should the noble hunger, the slave would fetch the food; just as he'd fetch alcohol for a sober noble. They also keep the nobles' houses clean and, if the walls of a nobles' house aren't smoothed, the slave will smooth them instead of idling. However! Should a slave break the law, the noble will be held accountable and punished WITH the slave. The slave would still sleep in the designated 'slaves' quarters/barracks.

6) A slave will run away from ANY hostiles and will NEVER fight unless it is to save his own life. A slave will never, EVER risk death to save the life of a slaver. The only exception is if the hostiles enter the slaves' quarters, in which case the slaves might gang up on them.

7) Slave fertility is severely decreased ... but children being born into slavery will happen in a mixed population. Children born into slavery are less likely to rebel if conditions aren't too harsh - though the threat of a slave uprising should ALWAYS be there.

8) Reactions to slaves should vary. A free dwarf spotting a dwarven slave from another clan would get unhappy thoughts, especially if the slave would be in a bad shape. But slaves of other races might bring up mixed feelings. If the dwarves have had nothing but wars and bother from the Elves, seeing an Elven slave could bring up a happy thought - especially in fortresses populated with engravings of Elves striking down the Dwarves! But what if the dwarves and elves have co-existed, traded and even happily agreed to not cut down so and so many trees? An Elven slave might make the Dwarf sad.  :( Those guys gave him the cloth which he made these fine pantaloons out of after all.

9) A slave's mood is usually glum - but can be raised via rewarding of good service. Clothes, food, alcohol or even promised freedom for them and/or their families/children could keep a slave from going berserk. Personal slaves to nobles get this effect nearly doubled, as a noble's prestige might demand that his slave would appear strong, healthy and efficient .. not a starved, beaten mess. Slaves might also be allowed to keep harmless pets, either as reward or from a kitten adopting a slave. Though one might argue that it's better to be feared by all, than loved by few..

Whew! And there's more!

Slavery should never be forced upon the player. In fact, the only way for a player to GET slaves would be if the player would actively seek it out; telling the soldiers to not kill the disabled, gathering the prisoners, returning them back to the fortress and then finally enslaving them. There'd be no situation where a player would find itself thinking, "Slaves? In MY Dwarven Fortress!?! It's likelier than I thought!"

Prolonged slavery should also heavily affect the way people percieve you. Some nations might frown upon it - even your trusted allies might become upset at this, even to the point of paying others to free your slaves. Then again, other nations with different views might suddenly greet you with open arms, applauding you and even defending you in slave-sparked wars! These feelings should grow more and more with prolonged slavery. A generation or two worth of human slavery would enrage free human kingdoms - maybe even to the point of declaring war, whereas other dwarven clans might simply shrug in apathy.

And again, with war come more possibilities - both for the player and the computer.

Let's say that you are a good guy and you're engaged in a defensive war against a neighbouring human kingdom. Those bastards saw your precious, precious silver mines and now want them for themselves!  :cool:

Once religion enters, having slaves of religion A could cause members of that religion to feel wronged, while religion B might applaud it and even come to your aid in a slave war!


So!

Slavery.

Pros
+Cheap, efficient-ish workforce that's relatively easy to maintain.
+Slave trade can bring in mad cash.
+Slavery of certain peoples can bring you closer with certain allies.
+Slavery of certain peoples can make your dwarves happier.
+Slavery in general can make certain nobles very happy.
+Steady source of political intrigue and tensions.

Cons
-Nations that value freedom might view you with distaste.
-Victim nations, races and religions may be greatly angered.
-If your dwarves like the enslaved peoples, they might become upset as well.
-The more slaves you got, the more likely adventurers and such attempt to become liberators.
-Steady source of political intrigue and tensions.


Whew, alright. That's pretty much it. I might've missed a bunch of things, and there are probably typo's and bad grammar all over the place.. it's 1:30 in the morning. Oops.

I hope I got the point across, though!

Footnotes:
*I do this in my games and try to trade them to the Elves ... ALL the TIME. 10+ pieces of them are in a my stockpile in my current game.

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herrbdog

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2007, 09:31:00 pm »

I like it all. No further thoughts at the moment, my brain is still in work mode.

WAIT! I AM A WAGE SLAVE! WHERE'S MY LIBERATOR?

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TerminatorII

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2007, 09:35:00 pm »

very well written.


The more DF progresses the more it appears that Toady needs to implement Agent Based Moddeling. Since nearly all htese great ideas have that in common.  :)

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Little

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2007, 09:58:00 pm »

Why do we need to feed them? Just work them as long as you can before they drop of hunger, then butcher them and feast on their flesh. Then send the organs back to the slaves orginal home.

That would send a message!

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Jaiya

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2007, 10:10:00 pm »

quote:
herrbdog: WAIT! I AM A WAGE SLAVE! WHERE'S MY LIBERATOR?

Wage slaves cancel cubicle work: interrupted by Liberating Elf Squad

quote:
TerminatorII: very well written.

I'm just glad it's understandable! I was worried my lack of sleep would turn me illiterate without noticing it. 8)

quote:
Little: Why do we need to feed them? Just work them as long as you can before they drop of hunger, then butcher them and feast on their flesh. Then send the organs back to the slaves orginal home.

That would send a message!


Yes! Yes yes yes! Absolutely necessary!

Though if the war is any distance away, feeding them enough to survive the trip might be necessary.. but after that? Well, as long as they finish my grand 30x30 two level tomb, who cares? Better yet ... feed the slaves their own dead. High fatality rates would actually help fight famine amongst the slaves! This would be a lovely option for the more benevolent-ish dictator types.

I guess this also means we need less ... pleasant ways of disposing corpses. Being able to make mass graves for slaves, prisoners and enemy dead would be nice - especially if they could instill some dread with the enemy.

(Gosh. Gruesome.)

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Spelguru

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2007, 10:50:00 pm »

A very nice post and quite detailed. A good idea too.   :(
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Jaiya

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2007, 07:59:00 am »

I love it.  :)

Though! Having slaves isn't really a guarantee that the wrath of the world will come down upon you, as much as it's a guarantee that those who have been wronged will most likely try and get revenge. Think of it like this: medieval France and Spain war, with Spain enslaving thousands worth of people. After the war, the Spanish would refuse to release them. This could set up the political climate between the two for generations. France not trying to throw a wrench into Spain's slave works would be rather unlikely, I'd like to think.

However, I do imagine this taking more proper channels. Diplomacy, trying to ask for the freedom of the slaves. Trying to buy their freedom. When negotiating peace, demanding a % or a set number of slaves set free. If the player continues to refuse, the wronged nation may take more direct approaches. That is, adventurers and mercenaries.

Then when it comes to other nations of the same race as the slaves you have taken, this is completely up to their government, culture and history. Like I (think I) said in the previous post, the idea of going to war against a dwarven clan that did you great wrong and enslaving them. This might, and this might not, cause your fellow dwarves to try and liberate them. If you're surrounded by dwarven clans that actively practice slavery and are on the good terms with you or on the bad terms with the victims, they might prefer persuading you into setting up a slave trading post. Their quarry with you would simply be annoyance at how you're hogging up all those 'Super Agile' haulers!

Then, you mentioned arenas as well. I think they're already planning on those and, if they are, involving captured slaves would be awesome. Letting your dwarves take a few minute break, have them gather in your underground coliseum and watch slave team A fight slave team B, and then the victorious team take on ... Captured Monsters team C! Winners might even get freedom! Or, if you are a cruel kind of dwarf, they might eat tonight. The dwarves would love this. Not to mention that instead of risking injuries when your dwarves wrestle each other to practice, you could simple set them out to fight the real thing! Albeit, a malnutritioned, exhausted real thing that offers no real challenge - but it IS practice. A doubly cruel player might set up slaves for target practice.

Aaalso, I didn't know that the use of slaves for jobs beyond mining, hauling and construction had been popular! I always imagined the Egyptian slaves raising pyramids, American slaves in the cotton fields, prisoners of war building bridges over jungle rivers and so on, so on. In that case, I'm all for slaves taking up other jobs. Especially if the slave is more skillful than the current worker dwarf. Being replaced by an enemy slave? His job outsourced!?  :mad:

I myself would be in favor of the ability to build certain .. slave industry districts as well. These wouldn't be required, but having a district where only slaves can work and are expected to work 24/7. This would be to avoid angry dwarves as explained above.

And finally, if slaves become a part of the game, slave raids are the natural progression of the military. Equipping and training soldiers for raiding operations, where they'd attack farms and villages, defeat the guards and then use non-lethal force to capture as many slaves as possible.

This could be done either for the money, selling them to other nations, for your own workforce or trading them back to their kingdom in exchange for dwarven slaves, a diplomatic agreement or some sort of bounty.

(Eee, I can't wait for armies being proper in the game.)

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Tormy

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2007, 09:01:00 am »

This is a decent idea.   :)
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Asehujiko

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2007, 10:57:00 am »

What will a country do if the living conditions of the slaves is better then the conditions at home?
For ex:
A human town has been under martial law for ages because it's so close to the goblin borders, everybody is forced to work double shifts to supply the army, there are very strict rules and any violation results in death. Most houses are destroyed by goblin catapults and the people live in tents because they can't leave their post in the forges to go rebuild them. That cililization goes to war with you, you sack their border towns to let the goblins in and make off with the population. Once they are at the fort, they get a 2 room appartiment, enough booze to ensure maximum productivity and get to do much lighter work like farming then they are used to at home.

Elves will be employed as woodcutters or traded for logs on a treeless map.

Humans get traded for booze.

Goblin child snatchers get put in a cage between the bag stockpile and the nursery. Ontop of the cage will be a sign, "SNATCH THIS, B*TCH". Kobold thieves will be use to decorate the coin vault in a similar fashion.

Other dwarves are traded for more booze.

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axus

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2007, 12:57:00 pm »

Hey the title has "Slaves" in it, I wonder if they will make it in before the God of Blood does.

Sounds like a good idea with a lot of features to implement.  They would require a lot of medical care before being useful again, unless surrendering was implemented somehow.

I think the first thing to look at is allegiance and motivations.  Right now the only thing different about the dwarves from slaves is how much food and alchohol they get.  Dwarves do it supposedly in dedication to their king and civilization, and to increase their wealth.  Captured slaves would serve out of fear and lack of alternatives.  Dwarves go outside your control when they get a fey mood or go crazy.  Slaves would go out of control when they went crazy or made an escape attempt.  Having guards around, chains, etc would suppress thoughts about escaping, as would the length of time of confinement.  Also, an army may come to liberate them and they would revolt.

I wouldn't use slaves myself, since I'm a "good" player, but it would be an interesting concept that would fit in well with this games ideals of armed conflict and labor!

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qwertyuiopas

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2007, 03:59:00 pm »

It would be a good idea to allow trading slave freedom...
after a big war, both sides taking slaves....
"Ill release half of the slaves we took if you give us back our legendary miner/engraver unharmed"
and that kind of thing.
And, if the slave's old conditions were worse, they could refuse.....
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Veroule

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2007, 08:26:00 pm »

Personally I am, "Something completely different."  If I had my way slaves would be captured, stripped, and then hammered for 5 years.  Those that survived this would be considered reasonably broken and would be allowed to work.

Having ripped the seams from the original clothing and resewn them into appropiate dwarf clothing, we would give our most recent workers loin cloths.  Those would be made from thier deceased comrades.  Yes, a thouroughly beaten human will be rewarded with a human skin loin cloth.

Then I might consider having a more abstracted view of just how a slaves owner will treat the slaves.  Being owned by a noble shouldn't be a free ride.

History has often shown that human nobliity owning human slaves results in greater levels of abuse of the slaves then other owners.  In fact the most vicious forms of abuse between humans recorded are instigated by a person in a "nobility" position.  A glaring example of a ruler abusing all those under them is Caligula.  Power and authority does not necessarily to such.  It just gives such a person access to more victims, which makes thing look worse from a historical perspective.

I would just be abusive of my slaves to make sure they are broken of thier former lives.  After that though they are free to lead a new one, earning within my fortress.  I thouroughly agree with allowing slaves to have a wage, and to let them make purchases.  Thier wage should be lower then a citizen dwarf, and thier prices higher.  Freedom should be something they can buy; and speaking of general human behavior, 5 years of solid conditioning followed by years of controlled hope generally leads to slaves that will buy thier freedom yet remain in the community and not demand better treatment now that they are free.

I am all for slavery.  Right after nobles are taught that legendary dwarves are not thier slaves.  Legendary dwarves tend to design special plumbing for some bedrooms, and plumbing malfuctions are frequent since no dwarf has a Plumber skill.

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 09:33:00 pm »

Sounds like some great ideas! I could even see the player earning favor with a neighbor(A) by buying slaves that another neighbor(B) has taken from (A), and freeing them back to their home countries! Or, make them upset by instead eating them. Oh! Slave Warriors vs. Skeletal Zombie Elephant Demons!
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Fishersalwaysdie

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 10:24:00 pm »

What about letting them stay in the fort? Making them earn citizenship by soldiering or something like that? It's been done before...
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Jaiya

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Re: War and Slavery
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2007, 05:56:00 pm »

Could work, do something like the ancient Roman slaves? I don't know the details, but I think slaves were allowed to work their way to a citizenship.

And when I think about it, different races / nations / cultures / religions should probably have vastly different ways of handling their slaves. Some might simply want them for mass sacrifices, some might want them as livestock for food, others for labor and others might not use slaves at all.

Human history has all kinds of different ways people used slaves. The nords/vikings, Egyptians, Romans, Mongols (?), Chinese, Aztecs ...

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