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[Felblood]

The ability to designate ramps from above is kind of nice, but designating them from below isn't that crazy, once you get used to the Z-axis (which you need to do anyway), and not being able to designate true channels at all is greatly frustrating.

Channeling into ramps adds realism and balance to dwarf fortress.  If you want to channel, you need to get into the pit you dug and dig it out yourself.  It prevents you from quickly digging a trench to block an enemy from approaching. 

There's no way you would need to dig up this much earth just to make a square hole without trapping yourself. Yes the scale is a little wonky, but a tile is more than large enough to allow for all the things you'd need to do. I've dug channels about that size, and with minimal foresight you can dig downward without trapping yourself, so long as there isn't any lava spilling in from the side (which is still pretty silly, even with the new way). I think it's safe to say the limitation that you can bore strait down one level, but not two, was more than adequately balanced and far more realistic.

If you want channeling a moat to take longer, you make it take longer, not convolute the process like this. When you dig a channel, you work from the top down, you don't dig a tunnel and then remove the roof. That would be inefficient and unsafe.

If you want moats that actually stop invasions to require more labor and engineering, give invaders the means to ignore irrigation ditches.

It also makes channeling out a large area easier as you have ramps to move up to a spot you missed. 

This is actually kind of nice, as I can designate entire pools at once, and there are escape ramps all around, making for decent swimming ponds, but this is absolutely monstrous for any sort of indoor well. I can't dig wells down through rooms I haven't layed out yet, as if they are too close to a wall, I'll get unsightly ramps that screw up my defensive chokepoints, by linking floors in ways that I don't endorse(There's always a well in the guardrooms by the entrance). This same problem crops up when I try to designate open topped rooms from above, as I have to leave extra room around the edges and do a bunch of extra detailing on the walls.

If a tile is large enough to hold a dwarf, then all of this extra hassle should be abstracted in the smoothing labor. I shouldn't have to go through three separate stages of designation just to get a square hole in the ground, from a race of troglodyte miners.

Do we know that this is a working-as-intended balance issue? Because the removal of channels seems fairly sudden and arbitrary to me. The game has always been fairly dramatically unbalanced. These occasional nods in the direction of balance, like beds needing to be made of wood or being unable to dig channels and so on, seem kind of disingenuous when compared to gatling-gun crossbows, armies filled with legendary comedians/pump operators, and moats full of carp. In fact I think I'd be happier with the rationale of "just because" than some ad-hoc argument in favor of "balance."

Some of those issues were actually addressed in this release, but there was no mention of this change before roll out, and I don't think this is working exactly as intended. What's the goal? --Make ditch digging less intuitive and realistic, for no readily apparent gains in balance? --Make it so dwarves can't flatten cliff sides conveniently, making living rock castles more of a hassle?

Where is the benefit? This doesn't make the game more challenging, as much as it makes the interface more of a pain, as you have to designate everything twice, if you want it to look good, and finagle the ends of your ditches in ways that increase the chances of floodgate installers trapping themselves.

I'd be happy with it if the ramps were removable from above- it's very annoying to have submerged ramps left that I can't get rid of when channeling down into water filled areas.

I don't think happy is quite a word that I would use, but I would accept this as a not-completely-insane solution. Blood, even if we couldn't make channels out of ramp/ditches if they were full of water, I would take this over what we have, right now.

Qloos, gets his harder to make moats, Name Lips gets assurance that this is a thought out gameplay change and not a bug that people seem prepared to welcome as an undocumented and poorly thought out feature. I still have to designate my rooms twice when working from above, but at least I don't trap my miners in the cisterns and goblin pits.

We need a way to remove ramps from above anyway. This handily removed the issue of stones being left behind in channels.

Even Pilsu agrees with us(mark your calenders).

There are times when I want stones left in a channel, but more often than not, they are just going to be under seven layers of running water. Why let them waste memory? I think this is an acceptable sacrifice, especially since removing ramps from above will reduce the amount of mountain I waste when carving a castle out of living rock (the way a proper dwarf should).

[612DwarfAvenue]

Honestly, if i wanted to make a ramp, i would designate the tile to be a ramp. I don't have a problem with trapping my Miners or anything, since i'm more hands-on with channeling and such, so i always make sure they can get out safely, even if it takes a while to dig everything. When i designate a channel to be dug, i expect a square hole in the ground. When people dig graves, they don't dig a tunnel leading to it just to get rid of ramps. They dig the whole square.

[Misterstone]

I like the new system.  Come on, guys, the game is a simulator, not a lego set.  If you don't like the ugly triangles, go the the channel's z level, tunnel out the space the channel will occupy, then channel that from above.

But never mind the trolling, I think the best compromise for this would be to allow us to fill IN ramps from above.  That way you could make a down ramp, tunnel around below to make the channel spaces you want, remove the floor over the tunnel from above, and get rid of your access ramp by filling in. 

Z level 0   -  o is floor tile, . is empty space tile (you channel over the tunnel on z-1), v is the access ramp (same as the ^ from Z -1)

Code: [Select]

oooovo
......
oooooo

Z level -1     # is rock/earth wall tile, = is the tunnel/channel, ^ is the upramp

Code: [Select]

####^#
oooooo
######

So in my system you'd build a ramp going down, tunnel out z -1, then fill the  ramp [v] in from above.


Realistic and elegant.  Don't change the channeling system, just add a "fill-in" command! Everyone wins!

[zwei]

I like the new system.  Come on, guys, the game is a simulator, not a lego set.  If you don't like the ugly triangles, go the the channel's z level, tunnel out the space the channel will occupy, then channel that from above.

This is  equipvalent of just removing ramps once you are done digging and does not really help.

It does not get rid of last ramp.

Basically, this is setup that most people have problem with:

Code: [Select]

~~###
~~###
~~###
~~###
~~###

~ - water
# - ground/rock
% - ramp
. - floor

Now, you can channel like this:

Code: [Select]

~~###
~~##%
~~#%%
~~###
~~###

and remove ramps:

Code: [Select]

~~###
~~##%
~~#..
~~###
~~###

Now, I have two options:

dig last wall and channle it from top.

Code: [Select]

~~###
~~##%
~~~~~
~~###
~~###

Weee! But you also risk dwarf drowning and in case of magma, you have guaranteed casualty.

Or you can be safe and channel from outside:

Code: [Select]

~~###
~~##%
~~%~~
~~###
~~###

Old system channel is clean:

Code: [Select]

~~###
~~###
~~~~~
~~###
~~###

And you did not have to sacrifice dwarf for clean entry nor did you need stairs/ramp somewhere along lenght of channel.

Now, we can handle that, but we need better tools:

 * Ability to get to upper level without having to construct permanent building (ramp or stairs). Ladder that worker can pull up when he is done or just ablity to grab edges and pull himself up.
 * Ability to remotelly breach wall (rig wall to collapse, link lever and pull it.) or just ablity to detonate gunpowder keg (15th century thing, but dwarves are advanged miners) that will bring down any badly suported wall (say, wall adjacent to keg that has less that five wall tiles adjanced) and all adjanced ramps.

[zilpin]

That is the perfect example of the problem.  Your first proposed solution was better.
Make channeling work the way it always has, but make it slower and put the rock at the digger's feet.

There is no rational reason to make digging a simple channel or trench take 4 carefully planned steps!

There's nothing "realistic" about making me micromanage dwarfs to cut a series of ramps, lower a rope, remove the ramps, climb up the rope, remove the rope, then cut a new ramp from above to make a simple channel, trench, or moat.
Emphasis on cutting the new ramp from above, since the supporters keep saying it's not realistic to cut a channel from above.

You want a convenience command to cut ramps from above, fine, no problem.
You want a convenience command for excavating large areas safely, fine, no problem (that's not provided by this bug/feature but people are acting like it is).

But leave the rest of us a way to make simple functional channels.

[Phoebus]

There's no way you would need to dig up this much earth just to make a square hole without trapping yourself. Yes the scale is a little wonky, but a tile is more than large enough to allow for all the things you'd need to do. I've dug channels about that size, and with minimal foresight you can dig downward without trapping yourself, so long as there isn't any lava spilling in from the side (which is still pretty silly, even with the new way). I think it's safe to say the limitation that you can bore strait down one level, but not two, was more than adequately balanced and far more realistic.

It was not even close to realistic.
If you can get out of the hole, other things should be able to get out of the hole. (it's a slope)
If they can't climb out, you shouldn't be able to either. (it's not a slope)
Pick one.

The new channeling system is far better. More intuitive, requires less micro-management, and is no longer an exploit.

[PsyberianHusky]

There's no way you would need to dig up this much earth just to make a square hole without trapping yourself. Yes the scale is a little wonky, but a tile is more than large enough to allow for all the things you'd need to do. I've dug channels about that size, and with minimal foresight you can dig downward without trapping yourself, so long as there isn't any lava spilling in from the side (which is still pretty silly, even with the new way). I think it's safe to say the limitation that you can bore strait down one level, but not two, was more than adequately balanced and far more realistic.

It was not even close to realistic.
If you can get out of the hole, other things should be able to get out of the hole. (it's a slope)
If they can't climb out, you shouldn't be able to either. (it's not a slope)
Pick one.

The new channeling system is far better. More intuitive, requires less micro-management, and is no longer an exploit.

With one build wall order I can effectively exploit iin the same way, it just looks uglier, and here at bay12 we are all about the ascetic qualities of our ASCII, I think a rope ladder out is the proper solution to this problem, and I know its gonna be put in eventually, it was gonna be in this version but time got in the way. My point why argue over what is gonna be fixed .

[BigD145]

Obviously, we need to get rid of channeling. It now serves the same functionality as d>r. That's too much repetition for me.

[612DwarfAvenue]

No, we obviously need to bring back channeling, back the way it was. Honestly, this is a game where Wagons take up more space than Dragons, being able to dig out a square hole seems normal compared, and again, it's more realistic than what it is now. Read what i said about graves.

[FluffyToast J]

requires less micro-management

What. If anything, it requires more. Having to go back and remove the ramps is an extra designation than before.

[zilpin]

Phoebus:

The new channeling system is far better. More intuitive, requires less micro-management, and is no longer an exploit.

rufkm???

You've never actually dug a channel with a mattock, or used any entrenching tool in real life, have you?

More intuitive?  How?  How does "dig channel" somehow mean "digging a ramp from above" rather than... a freakin channel!
Less micro-management?  So if I want a channel, I had 1 step before, but now have at least 4, and likely a dead dorf.

The exploit that needs to be fixed is dragons unable to step across a shallow ditch and goblins who are can make iron armor but are unable to throw a wood plank across a shallow ditch.  Fix that.


What's next, building walls considered "exploit prone", so we'll have to first dig a trench, build a foundation in it, build a floor on that, then build the wall?
It's more "realistic" after all.

[shadowclasper]

I think it would be nice if ramps that aren't up against a wall of some sort "collapsed" or automatically disappeared... makes more sense than a hole full of ramps >_>;

[Lord Darkstar]

Channeling into ramps adds realism and balance to dwarf fortress.  If you want to channel, you need to get into the pit you dug and dig it out yourself.  It prevents you from quickly digging a trench to block an enemy from approaching.  It also makes channeling out a large area easier as you have ramps to move up to a spot you missed. 

A single man can create a channel deeper than he is tall. It isn't even difficult to get out, as long as you simply dig yourself a few minor holes in the spot you want to ascend, so you can use your hands and feet to easily get out.

Ramps are needed for WHEELED vehicles, like wheelbarrels, bull dozers, etc. Dwarves don't use any of those.

The problem with moat (and wall) defenses is that opponents don't do seige yet. When they do, the smart opponents will just build bridges and seige towers over your static defense.

And realism--- as long as bookkeepers don't use paper, and don't gain "engraver" skill and accumulate engraved rocks and pebbles during their work, then there isn't any "realism". Just fun or challenge. The new channel system isn't fun, and isn't a challenge, it is just more work and creates ugly breaches.

[BigD145]

What's next, building walls considered "exploit prone", so we'll have to first dig a trench, build a foundation in it, build a floor on that, then build the wall?

Yes. Do want. I'd love to see things at the point where a hastily built wall, on loose soil or loam/sand/etc, can be dug under by sappers. If you take the time to trench and rock fill, sappers will become less effective.

@Shadowclasper: ramps already disappear when sitting in the middle of nowhere. Ramp a 3x3 and the middle square will not have a ramp.

[Trouserman]

ramps already disappear when sitting in the middle of nowhere. Ramp a 3x3 and the middle square will not have a ramp.

It is currently order-dependent.  Ramp the center square last, and it will not be cleared.