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[G-Flex]

I feel like it's probably just the fault of minor implementation problems, though. There's no reason the system itself needs to be thrown out, just... some things need to be handled better.

Keep in mind this release is just plain buggy, and we were told it would be. No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[alphawolf29]

Yea, im just sad it's basically unplayable with the amount of bugs.

theres buggy, and then theres unplayable. The combat system in my mind makes it totally unplayable.

[Ampoliros]

Err, so, crazy question - how exactly does DF determine when you've killed a creature of living bronze (or other thought-less and blood-less creature...zombies, skeletons, etc). You hack its torso or similar into enough pieces and it's presumed dead?

[Patarak]

So is this going to go down in history as the whackiest release ever?

[G-Flex]

Err, so, crazy question - how exactly does DF determine when you've killed a creature of living bronze (or other thought-less and blood-less creature...zombies, skeletons, etc). You hack its torso or similar into enough pieces and it's presumed dead?

I think you have to lop off one of the following: The upper body, lower body, or head.

That's at least my current guess.

The problem is, as I've stated a few times, you have to basically be able to do it in one blow, because repeatedly shattering/fracturing a bodypart it doesn't do anything to actually destroy it.

Yea, im just sad it's basically unplayable with the amount of bugs.

theres buggy, and then theres unplayable. The combat system in my mind makes it totally unplayable.

Haha, trust me, I hear you. I'm just saying, I'm sure it can be fixed.

[jseah]

^I think lopping off the head, upper body or lower body being required to one-hit-kill is about correct. 
Obviously, the thing that is happening is that most things aren't strong enough/big enough to be able to do that to a bronze colossus.  That thing is huge, it's one thing to chop off the arm of a giant bronze statue and completely different ballgame to cleave it in half. 

That said, fractures should help.  Perhaps shattered/fractured layers could be made easier to penetrate, requiring less skill/stats to do it.  Eventually, with enough fractures, even the groundhog (remember the super teeth?  XD) should be able to bite a bronze colossus in half (if it can reach up there, say due to the BC not having legs, it should be allowed to), although by that point you'ld be looking at something about to fall apart at any touch anyway. 

EDIT: another thing I don't get is why the BC should be allowed to do damage, or even move, when it doesn't have limbs.  WTF?

[Chagen46]

While I agree with pretty much everything said in this thread, i do have to say that the whole "melting in magma" thing is morbidly hilarious.

Seriously, reading the descriptions of creatures where appreantly every single part of their body is melting brings some hilarious and twisted images to my mind

[woose1]

Why are you guys so pissed that the only conceivable way to kill BC's is with magma?

I thought that was what we all did? 

[SmileyMan]

Yes, lead is much heavier than steel, but you cant swing it NEARLY as quickly.

From a very simplistic point of view, a more massive object, travelling over the same distance, with the same force constantly applied, will take a longer time (proportional to the square root of the mass) to reach the target, but will have higher momentum (also proportional to the root mass) when it gets there, and require a greater impulse to stop.

So a good combat system would include some sort of factor for mitigating the blow (because of the reaction time), but if the blow connects, the heavier object should hurt more.

As a reduction ad absurdum example, if you're beating an unconscious opponent, you want a lead club over a foam rubber one.

[NB: for constant force and distance, momentum = sqrt(mass x force x distance); time = 2 x sqrt(mass x distance) / force ]

[G-Flex]

EDIT: another thing I don't get is why the BC should be allowed to do damage, or even move, when it doesn't have limbs.  WTF?

It just does the "push" move over and over. I imagine it shifting its weight around and just whamming itself into you, or ramming you with its head or something. This manages to do a surprising amount of damage: He did it to one of my dwarves and managed to shove the dwarf's upper arm bone through his shoulder (breaking the shoulder).

From a very simplistic point of view, a more massive object, travelling over the same distance, with the same force constantly applied, will take a longer time (proportional to the square root of the mass) to reach the target, but will have higher momentum (also proportional to the root mass) when it gets there, and require a greater impulse to stop.

So a good combat system would include some sort of factor for mitigating the blow (because of the reaction time), but if the blow connects, the heavier object should hurt more.

As a reduction ad absurdum example, if you're beating an unconscious opponent, you want a lead club over a foam rubber one.

This is assuming you'll be able to apply the same force over that distance, and you almost certainly won't be able to because you'll be spending most of your effort simply trying to hold the thing up. If it were on one of those frictionless air-carts things from the local school science lab and you're just pushing it, sure, but you're working against gravity (and the hammer's inertia in some cases) very much, and your arm muscles are going to be exhausted just from wielding it.

Really, you want something dense enough to cause significant damage (and hard enough if it needs to penetrate anything directly), but light enough that you can still handle it with grace and effectiveness. That's why most historical warhammers were made out of, say, steel, but with a relatively small head.

Hell, historically, swords are actually quite lighter than people tend to think. Even one of those gigantic two-handers generally never weighed more than... what was it, 7-8 pounds? And that's for a very large one.

[nenjin]

Why are you guys so pissed that the only conceivable way to kill BC's is with magma?

Agreed. But it's unclear now how the BC is actually supposed to behave, since it can be decapitated and killed by another BC.

Either way, part of the objection is a semantic one. If I'm whacking on a dude, and he's not taking any damage from it, don't print "hits lower torso, shattering it." It should say "hits lower torso, but the attack was ineffective."

That at least is telling us something useful during combat. I'm all FOR creatures with non-standard ways of dying...as long as the game does it's part by letting me know I'm wasting my time.

[BloodBeard]

I don't want to break down all the hard work Toady put into changing the combat mechanics, but yeah it needs alot of tweaking. Untill then, make friends with creative (aka dwarfy) means of destroying your enemies!

[Halconnen]

The way one properly swings a heavy hammer is basically to lift it overhead, use the shoulders as a point of rotiation, and let gravity aid you when you swing it down. And I can easily believe that a lead hammer is much more devastating due to the sheer impulse even if the material is relatively soft and the impact thus gets slightly cushioned.

This is that this should require a lot of strength and exert you very quickly, and currently, while I can't seem to properly nail down wether faster exertion happens, there doesn't seem to be a problem with wielding heavy stuff with low strength, which is probably one of the main issues, here. A weak dwarf shouldn't be able to do it, a legendary maybe should be able to do this effectively?

[G-Flex]

The way one properly swings a heavy hammer is basically to lift it overhead, use the shoulders as a point of rotiation, and let gravity aid you when you swing it down. And I can easily believe that a lead hammer is much more devastating due to the sheer impulse even if the material is relatively soft and the impact thus gets slightly cushioned.

Then they would have made them out of lead in the medieval period. Lead was a whole lot cheaper than steel.

Most warhammers simply weren't like that at all, anyway. They were much more lithe, with smallish heads, and a pointed tip on one side.

And seriously, taking time to lift this giant, superheavy hammer directly over your head would probably be one of the worst tactical moves you can make in a battle. You'd leave yourself open to attack and could probably be knocked down very easily.

This is that this should require a lot of strength and exert you very quickly, and currently, while I can't seem to properly nail down wether faster exertion happens, there doesn't seem to be a problem with wielding heavy stuff with low strength, which is probably one of the main issues, here. A weak dwarf shouldn't be able to do it, a legendary maybe should be able to do this effectively?

Yeah, some function of creature strength vs. item weight should affect how fast he can swing it (for impact formulas) as well as how long it takes him to do it.

However, I'm not sure I see gold or lead ever being a good replacement for something like steel, for an actual warhammer. A warhammer cares about the shape that it's in, and softer metals are bad for that. It would matter less for a maul/sledgehammer, but I don't know how often those were actually used in war. Granted, DF DOES have them.

Really, I think it would be preferable to just make a larger weapon, perhaps with a bigger head, rather than change the material so drastically.

[Ampersand]

I think you guys are all really missing the point here. You're messing with the combat system in the Arena mode a lot, but only messing with freaking megabeasts.

Megabeasts are different. A LOT different than they were before. Look at the raw files, get an understanding of the absolute differences in size between a BC and a Dwarf. Yeah, they shouldn't be so invulnerable, but;

In dwarf mode, combat between a moderately skilled dwarf with a steel battle axe and no armor against a several troglodytes and an ogre resulted in swift execution of all the monsters by the dwarf in ways that would be utterly expected. Limbs go flying, blood sprays everywhere.

Individual creatures are no longer clones of each other. Their abilities to resist damage, recover from damage, move, react, and stand their ground are all highly variable. Combat depends on much on recruiting a dwarf fit for the job as it is in getting their skill at handling a particular weapon up.

Run a few fights against more reasonable opponents before you call everything into question. Why Bronze Colossi are definitely broken, this is because... Bronze Colossi are broken, than the whole system being broken.