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[MaDeR Levap]

Seems like every enemy in game turns into some weak kind of zombie. Except BC, these monsters seem to be almost immortal.

The point is that the guy fighting the bronze colossus could easily severely fracture, say, the head, but could not destroy it.

That's probably just Toady's way of saying "Sorry, you can't."

Och, really? How much you would bet on "Toady will NOT fix it"?

[Fieari]

There's a tag on the bronze colossus that you guys may find interesting...

[NO_THOUGHT_CENTER_FOR_MOVEMENT]

This does, in fact mean that it cannot be killed except by destroying each and every piece entirely, the easiest method of which is to melt it.

[Greiger]

Swords actually do seem to be quite powerful in this version, in arena mode I'm seeing things with hammers, crossbows and spears struggle do do any mortal damage to anything.

But in adventure mode with my adventurer using his trademark two handed sword multigrasp, things die in droves.  Anything unarmored loses parts almost every swing, including heads and entire lower bodies. Making anything organic cake.

I wondered around in the underground for quite some time last adventurer and nothing could so much as bruise my adventurer through his iron armor.  Yet with his iron two handed sword stuff was barely lasting 2 turns against him.  The only (unbugged) thing that lasted a reasonable amount of time was a GCS.  And that's just because I took out a few limbs before I finally lopped off the thing's abdomen.

I imagine it's because the slash attack for the two handed sword has such a big contact area that instead of just slashing through flesh like every other weapon it just lops the part off because the damage area is bigger than the part is.  I imagine a large axe would be just as effective.

EDIT: I fought ettins using it as well, and didn't have much trouble killing them with stabs.  The two handed sword randomly does a weaker stab attack, and while a stab that basically destroyed a head was ineffective.  Another stab with the same effect to the other head after, kills it off quite nicely.

[Untelligent]

There's a tag on the bronze colossus that you guys may find interesting...

[NO_THOUGHT_CENTER_FOR_MOVEMENT]

This does, in fact mean that it cannot be killed except by destroying each and every piece entirely, the easiest method of which is to melt it.

It means that without the tag and without a brain it will fall over.

[G-Flex]

Have you taken dwarf descriptions into account? I've noticed some have descriptions like "highly agile" "extremely muscular" and "gets tired quickly". Perhaps these randomized descriptors could account for why Team Iron wins one round, and Team Gold wins another with the same equipment?

The attributes themselves don't seem to very in the arena creatures, although things like broadness and fatness do. I used enough dwarves to account for this, though.

Also, make sure you bring the right weapon for the job. I watched a dwarf with a battle axe hack away at a giant for an hour, never doing more than bruising the fat. Then I sent in a spear-dwarf, who quickly pierced his guts and let him bleed out.

Yeah, I always made sure that damage was actually being done, trust me.

That's probably just Toady's way of saying "Sorry, you can't." Most other creatures feel pain, so even if you shatter them to hell and back and it doesn't outright kill them, a dozen other things will, eventually.

The BC is a special exception now because it's effectively immune to most standard ways of dying. Including multiple shatterings/fractures. If it had nerves, there would be something beyond bone shattering. Since there isn't, and you can't decap anything beyond limbs on a BC.....all you get is shatters.

You're missing the point. The general principle applies to other creatures as well in ways I've pointed out already.

And yes, I'm aware that it's intentional that the only way you can destroy a bronze colossus is by completely destroying the upper/lower body or head. That's fine. However, being able to heavily fracture parts means you should be able to destroy those parts, period. I had at least a dozen dwarves, all capable of doing this, fighting the colossus at once to no avail.

So yeah, even with that exception in mind, things are still messed up. An ettin who's had pretty much every part of him skewered and fractured by a pike, with every organ compromised, still lives. The facts remain that cumulative damage doesn't do what it should, that bleeding/organ-failure effects aren't as profound as they should be in at least some cases, and that there are some general balance issues that need addressing, not considering the weird magma/gold-weapon issues.


Regarding some stuff other people have been saying: It seems that armor is pretty ridiculously tough in this version, whereas a lot of creatures' attacks are ridiculously weak. From what I've been hearing, a set of bronze armor can even prevent a dragon from doing much to you.

[JohnLukeG]

Like I said in another thread, my wrestler in fortress mode achieved legendary status from beating an unconscious gazelle, and eventually died of thirst before it could be killed. 

What were you fighting?

It was a gazelle.



I find it silly that a dwarf could attack one for so long that he reaches legendary status then dies of thirst before killing it.

[G-Flex]

I think that's another issue with cumulative damage, at least partially.

Obviously, punches that just bruise fat/muscle shouldn't do much, but eight hundred of them in a row probably should.

Of course, by the time you're Legendary, you're probably breaking bones... but again, breaking a bone doesn't do as much as it should right now, and even if it did, each one probably wouldn't be a death sentence, and by the trends I'm seeing, that means that none of them would even combined.


[UPDATE]

I know this is a different issue that's probably been around for a while, but wrestlers don't seem to choose what moves they perform very well. They usually just keep punching, which does just about nothing at the moment, and sometimes they'll get a hold on an opponent's body parts but then immediately release it. They hardly do anything else. Also, I have about four entire pages of a combat log of a dwarf gouging out a carp's eyes in arena mode. He just. Won't. Stop. Gouging. Not that the carp is dying, of course... if it does, it'll be a while until it happens. Wait, no. Bled to death, after several dozen successful eye-gougings.

Oh, and swimming dwarves are surprisingly good at treading water even while unconscious.

[Nihilist]

I was able to get a BC to kill another BC with a Slade Two-handed Sword... Lopped its head right off.
Also from taking control of various creatures I've noticed that they do vary in stats. Easiest way to confirmed is spawn a few dwarves and control each one... and then read their stat screen.

[Areyar]

@ your issue with iron vs gold hammermen: might be because of weight being the major quality of the material that is considered in blunt weapons, as opposed to edge-holding/hardness for swords.

also @ wrestlers messing about: That is how I fight unarmed: like a dabbler.

[G-Flex]

I was able to get a BC to kill another BC with a Slade Two-handed Sword... Lopped its head right off.
Also from taking control of various creatures I've noticed that they do vary in stats. Easiest way to confirmed is spawn a few dwarves and control each one... and then read their stat screen.

The description changes when you assume control? Interesting, because if so, that means it doesn't display the stats for creatures that aren't yours, or similar.

@ your issue with iron vs gold hammermen: might be because of weight being the major quality of the material that is considered in blunt weapons, as opposed to edge-holding/hardness for swords.

Yeah, and I'm not convinced that iron swords are sharper anyway, for instance, since metals in general seem to have the same MAX_EDGE value, if that means what I think it does.

also @ wrestlers messing about: That is how I fight unarmed: like a dabbler.

Problem is, they do that regardless of skill. A wrestler with high wrestling skill and no striking skill will still spend way too much time punching. I want to say this isn't an issue with this particular release, though.

[John Hopoate]

I was able to get a BC to kill another BC with a Slade Two-handed Sword... Lopped its head right off.

I'd like to confirm the same thing happened to me

It's still ridiculously tough to kill

[uran77]

It takes like 15 turns to strangle animals now

[nenjin]

I was able to get a BC to kill another BC with a Slade Two-handed Sword... Lopped its head right off.

I'd like to confirm the same thing happened to me

It's still ridiculously tough to kill

There must be some strength quotient going on then. Because I had multiple guys capable of severing, using the best weapons they had, and the best they could manage were fractures and shatters.

It would stand to reason, since a handless "push" by a BC is enough to shatter bone through heavy armor. Maybe we just don't get dwarves in arena mode with high enough stats to actually decap and kill BCs. (Which would make sense. You can't select legendary-anything in arena traits...so the pre-gen traits are probably capped too.)

[G-Flex]

If you can shatter an object, you can destroy an object. This should go for a BC's head or torso as much as any object in the real world.

[alphawolf29]

I want the old combat system back, but with all the new weapons with just damage %s and the new underground features.

Overall this combat system is just severely disappointing and misses out on some key (simple) facts.

e.g

Yes, lead is much heavier than steel, but you cant swing it NEARLY as quickly.