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Author Topic: My comments from testing arena mode, on combat/damage (plus a few other things)  (Read 33502 times)

Huggz

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Combat IS kinda stupid. I pitted a fully armed, fully skilled bronze colossus (Full adamantine with Iron warhammer) against a naked, unskilled one and 10 minutes later the unskilled one had EVERY limb red and a couple had been removed but he was still alive...

Also I gave a bunch of goblins adamantine bows and arrows intending to kill some elves for the lulz, spawned 20 elves but I forgot to remove the skills (they were naked though) and the elves got ALL THE WAY TO THE GOBLINS who by that time had fired around 400 arrowsat the elves, AND KILLED THEM ALL!

I am going to mod in 'Dense Adamantine', which can be made from 3 adamantine wafers, so that weapons can be made from adamantine...
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Max White

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My horse managed to rip a few pieces off a demon before it had any injures worse then bruises. I'm thinking maybe spears will be useful for the quick kills once the elves targets have been knocked out.

G-Flex

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Like I said in another thread, my wrestler in fortress mode achieved legendary status from beating an unconscious gazelle, and eventually died of thirst before it could be killed. 
What were you fighting?

I also noticed that armor seems way too damn good.

I just had an iron man with maxed skills fight those copper-clad dwarves. He was using a steel maul. The dwarves had copper armor and gold swords. The dwarves won. Turns out their copper armor was actually preventing any serious damage from being done.

Combat IS kinda stupid. I pitted a fully armed, fully skilled bronze colossus (Full adamantine with Iron warhammer) against a naked, unskilled one and 10 minutes later the unskilled one had EVERY limb red and a couple had been removed but he was still alive...

Yep. Same stuff I described. It's pretty bad sometimes.

Quote
Also I gave a bunch of goblins adamantine bows and arrows intending to kill some elves for the lulz, spawned 20 elves but I forgot to remove the skills (they were naked though) and the elves got ALL THE WAY TO THE GOBLINS who by that time had fired around 400 arrowsat the elves, AND KILLED THEM ALL!

I am going to mod in 'Dense Adamantine', which can be made from 3 adamantine wafers, so that weapons can be made from adamantine...

This is perfectly normal, though. Just don't use adamantine for arrows.

Adamantine still should make excellent bladed/piercing weapons and armor, just not blunt weapons or projectiles.


My horse managed to rip a few pieces off a demon before it had any injures worse then bruises. I'm thinking maybe spears will be useful for the quick kills once the elves targets have been knocked out.

One of my examples I posted above involved an ettin getting constantly stabbed very successfully with a pike, including massive skull fractures. It didn't do any good no matter how many hits landed or how deep they seemed to go.
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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Max White

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I am going to mod in 'Dense Adamantine', which can be made from 3 adamantine wafers, so that weapons can be made from adamantine...

Don't be silly, you don't need to mod anything, you just need some shade!

Huggz

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I thought it was actually shale? And isnt shale just a rock? Or is that the point?
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G-Flex

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It's not "shade" and it's not shale either. It's slade. And it's some kind of ridiculously heavy spoiler-related material.
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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

nenjin

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Guys...

The Bronze Colossus is MEANT to be nigh on indestructible now.

I had five or so dwarves with slade axes and hammers wail on one for 30 turns or so. The best they managed was to cut its feet and hands off.

They can ONLY be killed by melting, as far as anyone can tell.

Using monsters with no skin, muscles, fat, organs and no ability to sense pain is NOT a valid test to make statements about entire combat system.


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G-Flex

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You were missing the point.

The point is that the guy fighting the bronze colossus could easily severely fracture, say, the head, but could not destroy it.

This is the exact same problem that I had pointed out in other examples, and that other people had too: That cumulative damage simply doesn't work as it should.

I don't expect fracturing a colossus's skull to kill it, but if you can give it a severe skull fracture seven thousand times on end, how can you not destroy the skull? It doesn't make any sense to say that you can split something open repeatedly but not destroy it eventually.

So yes, it is a valid test, depending on what you want to test. Obviously it's not good for testing other things. But I did other tests for those things, and so did other people.
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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

PsyberianHusky

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It was kinnda silly before, the system just needs some tweaks, I think most of it can be done with the Raws
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G-Flex

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I don't believe it can. I have no idea what's up with blizzard men, and lava acting funny with regards to creatures is probably not something you can fix through raw editing. The other combat problems seem more to do with the way the system works than the creature/material definitions.
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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

Jehdin

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Yeah, it`s incredible hard to kill things now. Once, in adventure mode, my sword managed to get stuck in the throat of my enemy- After twisting it 3 times around in his throat i managed to free my sword.

We fought for another ~80 turns.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Previously, on Dwarf Fortress Z...
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tigrex

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I have to agree with the OP.  In adventure mode combat I regularly "shatter" bones, only for them to remain functional.  ie An ettin with a shattered lower leg bone has no problem standing and fighting.  Strangely enough, destroying tendons has more effect in dropping enemies than bones do!

Even the term "shattered" is misleading.  I would imagine that a shattered bone would be totally pulverised, in several pieces, incapable of any action.  The way the game interprets it, it sounds more like a hairline fracture to me.  And oddly enough, a shattered bone can be hit and shattered again, with no indication that it worse off than before.  This is mostly evident when using a hammer on a creature: since the hammer can really only kill by smashing in the head in this version, it can be comical to shatter the skull three or four times before it randomly sends a piece of skull through the brain, killing off the enemy.

As it is, creatures routinely shrug off attacks that should kill them.  I have, for example, torn a naked mole dog's heart with the aid of a spear.  It just keeps attacking, instead of hosing me down with every drop of blood in its chest and keeling over.  Lungs will have some effect, eventually, but not in any timely fashion.  Hacking muscle, fat, skin is a waste of time.  Blood loss doesn't seem to affect the enemy much.  A thrust to the neck that tears out the throat only resulted in oozing blood.  Creatures are almost constantly in extreme pain, but it seems irrelevant since they never pass out from it.   Hitting the guts will make an enemy vomit butdoes  not seem to hasten their demise overly.   If a fight goes on long enough, a creature may pass out due to exhaustion.  Damaging the brain is remarkably effective: even a bruise to the brain is sufficient to kill a dragon.

Overall, I find swords the best weapon to use thus far.  While I've yet to set up a good decapitation, they are surprisingly effective at chopping off limbs (which isn't as devastating as you'd assume) and the entire lower body (which is instant death.).

The damage done to adventurers is sketchy, too.  So far, after fighting werewolves, dragons, ettins, wolves, naked mole dogs and others, the only creature that could inflict any damage at all was a bronze colossus, which, may I say, was very effective at doing so.  Every other creature could not inflict even a scratch to my adventurers. 

I hope that my observations can be of help to those intending to evaluate or adjust the system.
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G-Flex

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The reason swords are so great is probably because of severs. When cumulative strikes don't do much, you need severely debilitating individuals blows. After all, when you can't bludgeon someone to death, you gotta do something.
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== Human Renovation: My Deus Ex mod/fan patch (v1.30, updated 5/31/2012) ==

nenjin

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Quote
The point is that the guy fighting the bronze colossus could easily severely fracture, say, the head, but could not destroy it.

That's probably just Toady's way of saying "Sorry, you can't." Most other creatures feel pain, so even if you shatter them to hell and back and it doesn't outright kill them, a dozen other things will, eventually.

The BC is a special exception now because it's effectively immune to most standard ways of dying. Including multiple shatterings/fractures. If it had nerves, there would be something beyond bone shattering. Since there isn't, and you can't decap anything beyond limbs on a BC.....all you get is shatters.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Folly

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Have you taken dwarf descriptions into account? I've noticed some have descriptions like "highly agile" "extremely muscular" and "gets tired quickly". Perhaps these randomized descriptors could account for why Team Iron wins one round, and Team Gold wins another with the same equipment?

Also, make sure you bring the right weapon for the job. I watched a dwarf with a battle axe hack away at a giant for an hour, never doing more than bruising the fat. Then I sent in a spear-dwarf, who quickly pierced his guts and let him bleed out.
I similarly watched two sword-dwarves in heavy armor slap eachother around harmlessly for a while; then I threw a mace-dwarf into the mix and fairly soon he had crushed the lungs of one, causing him to suffocate, and bashed in the skull of the other.
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