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[Andeerz]

Physics discussions are all fine and dandy, but a maul to your kneecap doesn't particularly care what is in the way.

The thing is that not every strike will be perpendicular to the armor, and a lot of plate armor is designed to deflect the blows that aren't. Basically, your kneecap does care if the blow is skewed a bit and mostly just glances off.

Bingo.  Not all armours are created equal.  The shape of plate armour afforded by its solid nature is a huge factor in its ability to protect body parts.  A glancing blow will not transfer as much force as a perpendicular one, and armour designs took this into account.  Read the book "Techniques of Medieval Armor Reproduction" for more info.  Some armour designs, such as the 14th century bascinet (a helm) were possible shaped as they were to make it more likely that a blow would not land perpendicularly (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_bascinet.html).  Knee armour was shaped the same way.  I am not familiar with any documented uses of sledge hammers in war as a melee weapon against armored individuals, but I'm confident that G-flex's knee would be better off with a plate knee defence than without one, and that a glancing blow would not be as destructive as a perpendicular one.

(yes, "plate mail" is no more)

Awesome!  I'm glad Toady has an appreciation for correct term usage.  :3

[Nikov]

My extensive reading into military science asserts that its inconsequencial just how maimed a person is rendered; if they are no longer able to carry out their military functions they are effectively neutralized. This is why I say it doesn't much matter between a hammerblow to plate, leather or bare skin; direct or glancing. It will take an incredibly lucky, bullet-off-the-helmet sort of shot not to cripple your knee, at least for the duration of the fight. Now a glancing blow to plate might well spare you a shattered joint but you're still a limping target, assuming the hammer doesn't glance behind your knee and simply hook you against the shaft.

And yes, sledgehammers were used in war under the term 'maul'. I believe Ajax used one in the Iliad. I was merely using it as a modern-day example as to why debating physics is rather silly when we are talking about blunt force trauma against a body that is remarkably fragile against the right implements of death.

[Andeerz]

True that.  I agree entirely.

[G-Flex]

(yes, "plate mail" is no more)

Awesome!  I'm glad Toady has an appreciation for correct term usage.  :3

I remember actually making a thread suggesting that a long time ago, but I doubt it really influenced much. The change was probably mostly to make the name more precise rather than more accurate.

It will take an incredibly lucky, bullet-off-the-helmet sort of shot not to cripple your knee, at least for the duration of the fight. Now a glancing blow to plate might well spare you a shattered joint but you're still a limping target, assuming the hammer doesn't glance behind your knee and simply hook you against the shaft.

I see your point, but depending on the shape of the plate where you're hitting it, I can also see it being very, very easy for almost all of the force of the blow to be deflected.

Besides, simply neutralizing the opponent isn't all that matters here. Yeah, a dwarf with a broken leg who can't walk is still useless in the fight, but afterwards, it helps if the injuries are at least somewhat recoverable.

[Nikov]

Yep, arena mode fighting proves hammer-wielders are much more effective than sword-wielders during a plate armored melee. Hammers are glancing off of breastplates, however, broken limbs, hands and skulls are more than enough to cripple the sword user before bludgeoning death rather slowly grinds them down. Swords have much more dramatic effects, however; I got quite lucky on my third fight and managed to take off the opponent's right lower arm. My sword-blows merely glanced off the victim, however, and eventually he bled to death. I've not tried fighting with leather or leather with hammer versus plate with hammer, but I have my guess as to how that would go.

[Andeerz]

Thanks for the update Nikov!  It is most excellent that the effects of bludgeoning and other weapons are relatively accurately portrayed as well as the characteristics of different armours.  Frikkin' sweeeeet!  I guess my suggestion needs not exist anymore as the concerns of the original post are likely not an issue...

[Andeerz]

Yep, arena mode fighting proves hammer-wielders are much more effective than sword-wielders during a plate armored melee. Hammers are glancing off of breastplates, however, broken limbs, hands and skulls are more than enough to cripple the sword user before bludgeoning death rather slowly grinds them down. Swords have much more dramatic effects, however; I got quite lucky on my third fight and managed to take off the opponent's right lower arm. My sword-blows merely glanced off the victim, however, and eventually he bled to death. I've not tried fighting with leather or leather with hammer versus plate with hammer, but I have my guess as to how that would go.

Yep!  My tests show the same thing, as well as that leather armour in all cases protects less than plate, and hammer/mace-wielders are more effective than spear-wielders against plate-clad enemies. 

However, my arena tests with plate armoured individuals squared off against each other show that pikes are more effective than maces and hammers which led me to a possibly relevant observation and associated suggestions:  I have reason to believe that breast plates and gauntlets do not defend the upper arms and shoulders, as these are what are predominantly damaged in fights between hammer/macemen vs pikemen clad in plate armour.  Also, I never see strikes to the arms, shoulders, and neck damaging through the plate.  If there isn't any plate arm, neck, and shoulder defense, then there should be! 

Also, with regard to neck strikes, I never see neck strikes damaging through any of the other armour types, either.  There should be appropriate neck defenses for those types as well. 

Another suggestion while I'm at it:  Greaves should be able to be worn in conjunction with chain leggings.  I could nitpick about terminology used for the various pieces of armour as well... but that doesn't bother me too much.

Also, does weight of armour influence fatigue?  I think it does, but I'm not sure.

Oh, and do fighters in this game realize when an opponent is sufficiently incapacitated to move on to another threat?  I haven't tested this out yet.

And one final question... do long weapons like spears and pikes have a reach advantage?  If they don't, they really should, along with associated disadvantages at close range if appropriate.

[Andeerz]

I have reason to believe that breast plates and gauntlets do not defend the upper arms and shoulders, as these are what are predominantly damaged in fights between hammer/macemen vs pikemen clad in plate armour.  Also, I never see strikes to the arms, shoulders, and neck damaging through the plate.  If there isn't any plate arm, neck, and shoulder defense, then there should be! 

Making this edit to the item_armor.txt raw will address this issue:

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_BREASTPLATE]
[NAME:breastplate:breastplates]
[ARMORLEVEL:3]
[UBSTEP:1]
[LBSTEP:1]

  Wheee!  Thanks Foxbyte!

[Lord Shonus]

If possible, adding new armor pieces instead of expanding existiong ones would be preferable, IMO.

[Andeerz]

I wholeheartedly agree.    If Toady ever decides to do so, I would be more than happy to suggest some excellent references on the matter, and even loan/give him copies of the references I have!

[Nikov]

NAY! It is up to us! Pauldrons (upper arm) and bracers (lower arm) are needed, as well as chain sleeves (full arm). I'm seeing most of the axe or sword's lethality drawn from the lack of heavy armor on the arms, to the degree its comical watching swordsmen flip limbs about. Perhaps a chest-slot [OVER] armor for pauldrons and a glove slot [OVER] armor for bracers?

[Andeerz]

I agree Nikov!  Hmmm... I have no experience modding other than the change to the breast plate raw file I posted earlier.  Is it within the modder's capacity to add new items of armour?

[SIGVARDR]

The main armor piece that is severely lacking is a gorget,a metal/leather piece that fits around your neck.very handy to prevent arrow in throat scenarios and occasionally prevent decapitation.

[Andeerz]

Gorgets most certainly and absolutely need to be in!!!  Is there any piece of armor currently that could be modified in the raws right now to protect it?

[NinjaE8825]

Hm, I always thought gauntlets protected both the lower arm and the hand.

As for gorgets, I think modding the breastplate as above might do the trick.

BTW, has anyone tried using adamantine cloaks to protect their dwarves' upper arms? I think it might work, but you can't make adamantine clothing in the arena.