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[The Khan]

I disagree. Medieval? Elves and Dwarves and Goblins and Beak Dogs, Snow trolls and whatnot? Please. Magic is a must in this game, though rare and difficult.

[KrunkSplein]

quote:Originally posted by The Khan:
<STRONG>I disagree. Medieval? Elves and Dwarves and Goblins and Beak Dogs, Snow trolls and whatnot? Please. Magic is a must in this game, though rare and difficult.</STRONG>

Read more carefully before coming down on someone, Khan - he said "some kind of alternative medieval setting."  Yes, there are Dwarves, Elves and Goblins.  So?  Who is to say that they all aren't different branches of the Human evolutionary tree in this world?  Magic isn't "a must" in this game, despite your assurances.  Just because you tie fantasy to magic in your mind, doesn't mean it's always the case.

Also, Medieval here refers to the level of technology, not the setting.  He's saying that we're building fortresses and fighting with crossbows and axes, not rifles and tanks.

I guess I'm just upset by the increasing amount of snark on the boards lately.

[Pacho]

?? Toady has already explained to us that magic is going in.  He just doesn't quite know how.  There's that whole Wizard Tower side too.

[The Khan]

quote:Just because you tie fantasy to magic in your mind, doesn't mean it's always the case.

Herein comes our disagreement. A fantastical setting exists, thus it needs some supernatural force to fuel it. How will you explain daemons then? Lava evolved avian-reptile life forms?

 

quote:Fantasy is a genre of art that uses magic and other supernatural forms as a primary element of plot, theme, or setting .

I have found this passage in Wikipedia. It may not be 100% true, but magic is inevitably bound to Fantasy stories. Earliest ones being Gilgamesh of course, I'm right now reading a translated sets of Sumerian tablets, written by a Sumerian teacher named Ludingirra, translated by a Turkish sumerologue, and it also refers to Gilgamesh. It involes magical woods, a huge dragon-like monster thingie, and gods and goddesses.

quote:Originally posted by Haedrian:
<STRONG>What if replacement arms/legs would require VERY HIGH QUALITY (masterwork ?) mechanisms?

Small gears and the like to give a 'quasi-robot' arm?</STRONG>

BIVRIP!

[ August 06, 2007: Message edited by: The Khan ]

[Nexus]

I don't see what magic has to do/not to do with what I wrote.  

In a setting such as DF you could have magic to heal you and all that. But that doesn't mean your dwarves have much knowledge of modern medecine, which was my point to begin with.  Clumsy amputation or basic treatment is reasonable, neuroreconstructive surgery is not.  Of course, you could use spells for lost limbs and the like, but that's not medecine.

Medecine is a science and should have limitations.  Magic? Another matter entirely.  I'm sure Toady already has loads of neat surprises for us  

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Concerning the magic-debate, I wanted to point out the following: Even if you have magic in a world, its availability and appliances can vary greatly.

You can have worlds where every teenager knows how to create a healing potion and then you can have worlds where magical healing potions can only be created by priests of healing gods and only in small quantities. You can have worlds where only wizards with an inherent knack for it can actually ever learn magic, needing years to train the skill while in other worlds, any idiot can cast a fire spell making lanterns and normal furnaces unnecessary.

My point is that because magic is fictional, its limitations are left to the designer. Toady One could have said just as easily that there is only inherent magic, like the dragons' ability to fly and breathe fire, while spells or magic artifacts do not exist. Who could claim that that wouldn't make sense? Actually, the Xanth novels have such a world. On the other hand, he could also have given the dwarves arch mage powers with which any peasant could turn a piece of ore into a metal bar just by waving his hand at it. Again, who would have the evidence to say that it can't be like that?

Therefore, saying certain forms of magic are a must just because we are talking about a fantasy setting seems absurd to me.

Bringing things into a more constructive vein, I believe the spirit of the game is something we should concentrate on. DF is not designed to be easy. It is not really aiming at powergaming (after all, at least in fortress mode, that only hastens your downfall). Therefore, I believe it would be odd if things got too convenient. However, I think it could be more reliable, in the way that some final state will eventually be reached, either healed or at least scarred and quiet, that is something I think would be good for the game.

What really makes me shudder is the thought of getting a noble by minting enough coins or producing enough whatever who is able to cast "Raise Dead" at will. Certainly, that's magic healing, but that doesn't really feel like the DF I know.

Well, but these are just my thoughts on this and it is Toady One who decides what is implemented how. Let's not forget that either

Deathworks

[The Khan]

quote:Originally posted by Deathworks:
then you can have worlds where magical healing potions can only be created by priests of healing gods and only in small quantities.

Precisely what we need, not to mention some sacrifice system of certain goods on an altar to get healing. ( to please macromanagement fans )

[Haedrian]

Dwarfy is miserable. He was saddened by his best friend being sacrificed on an altar to Armok lately.

You know what would be evil.. sacrificing a dwarf to heal another dwarf completely...

[cOMMUNISMISFANCY]

quote:You know what would be evil.. sacrificing a dwarf to heal another dwarf completely...  

I /knew/ those migrant children were useful for something!

[Lightman]

I say a "Doctor" or "Healer" profession would be great. Maybe allow a room of beds to be designated as a "Hospital" (by Q'ing a bed) and then have a Medical Workshop for the practitioners.

[mickel]

You could have several rooms in the hospital industry. A normal hospital has, after all. There'd be the examination/treatment room where dwarves are made to turn their head and cough and then to drink a mixture of quicksilver and laudanum, and then there'd be the surgery room which is quite similar to a butchery, and then there's the ward, which is a big room full of beds...

[Another]

Or just add one or more 'medical' items to the menu of the already present in the game butchery.   Probably even a 'Sacrifice' menu item. Quite atmospheric I guess.   It would finally get full sense to words "Slaves to Amrok, God of Blood"

[Tamren]

quote:Originally posted by The Khan:
[QB]Herein comes our disagreement. A fantastical setting exists, thus it needs some supernatural force to fuel it. How will you explain daemons then? Lava evolved avian-reptile life forms?[QB]

Sorry but magic is in no way tied to fantasy. Magic is simply a label that can be affixed to anything and everything to justify its existence. The whole point of fantasy is to let you talk about things that would otherwise not be believable or do not currently exist. Magic is just one name for it, not a fundamental law.

Dwarf fortress can do just fine without magic missiles. As it is now, magic would ruin the setting. We are talking about dwarves using (mostly) real technology in order to carve a hole in the mountain and live in it.  Making 1 bar of steel has 8 seperate steps, and that does not factor in the gathering of raw material. I appreciate the realism because it feels like i have accomplished something.

If you tagged magic onto everything you would instead have to collect 5 gold runes and 3 blue runes and 50 mana stones so you can engrave the arcane rune RHJO into the ground so that you can make steel by hitting yourself in the head with a piece of iron ore while standing on the H in RHJO!.... yeah no thanks.

The same goes for healing.

One idea we came up with and refined earlier was that the doctor would be a noble. He arrives at your fortress, sets up shop and gets an assistant. The doctor would handle all the injuries in your fortress. Eventually the assistant becomes experienced enough in his own right and he can be promoted to a doctor noble. Both get a new assistant.

This ensured that your fortress would have at least 2 competent healers per 40 or so dwarves. And that doesnt even include stretcher bearers, medics and all the other stuff we came up with.

Thats not to say magic has no place at all in DF. I myself had a few suggestions in that vein awile back. The common consensus in the threads ive read so far indicate that magic would be better off as a barely understood technology instead of a do-all and end-all mystical force that encompasses the entire world.

[ August 10, 2007: Message edited by: Tamren ]

[Lightman]

I'd rather there just not be magic. I can't imagine where it would fit. There might be room for it at some stage in a limited capacity, but I like the game as it is. I like the pseudo-realism.

If there were to be hospitals, I also don't think they should get too complicated. Maybe the noble idea would work. The Physician noble could allow dwarves to be designated medics. The Physician would demand 1 medic per X number of dwarves.

[Tamren]

The way the medics worked was that they were pretty much normal soldiers with a bit of extra knowledge that carried packs of supplies instead of extra armour. What they would do is stem bleeding, bind cuts, set bones and such. This allows mildly wounded soldiers to get back into the fight without the wounds troubling them.

If the wound was too severe, the medic would stabilize the soldier so that he would not get any worse, and a stretcher team would take him to the hospital after someone drags the wounded dwarf out of the combat area.

After that the doctor takes over.