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Author Topic: Digital Piracy  (Read 12377 times)

Shades

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2010, 03:47:00 am »

If there's no IP/Copyright/Patenting, there is no way to sell an invention without it being stolen.

Although I concede your point on Copyright/IP there is ample evidence to show how Patents stifle innovation and none to show it protects innovators at all. The only pro-patents studies I've seen have ignored the fact all their points are covered by copyright and IP laws already.

This is slightly off topic I admit but please don't lump copyright in with patents. (I should note that personal patents didn't appear to have the problems the current patent laws do but that is a separate issue).
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Jreengus

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2010, 03:56:50 am »

I'll just pop in to point out that "intellectual property" is a phrase coined by copyrightists to obscure the real point of copyright. The point isn't to say that you own what you create but rather to ensure you get paid for creating it.
Horseshit. It's a phrase designed as a catchall for copyrights, patents, and trade secrets. And we as a society have decided that, guess what? It is property. You not liking it does not mean "the copyrightists" are doing something misleading.

Me not liking it has nothing to do with it. The term intellectual property was invented to make it seem as if you own what you create. You don't. What you create is owned by everyone and that is the entire point of copyright to encourage people to contribute to this common cultural heritage. When it stops doing that by allowing people to cling on to something indefinitely it is no longer serving it's function.
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Virex

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2010, 04:26:51 am »

If there's no IP/Copyright/Patenting, there is no way to sell an invention without it being stolen.

Although I concede your point on Copyright/IP there is ample evidence to show how Patents stifle innovation and none to show it protects innovators at all. The only pro-patents studies I've seen have ignored the fact all their points are covered by copyright and IP laws already.

This is slightly off topic I admit but please don't lump copyright in with patents. (I should note that personal patents didn't appear to have the problems the current patent laws do but that is a separate issue).

Don't pin me down on this, because I'm not entirely sure about intellectual property, but I think that patents are broader and as such encompass stuff that are exactly the same but look slightly different. let me explain that:

Imagine you invented a new kind of bike chain, that has half the friction of a normal chain, because you altered the shape of the links. Now the invention would be the link shape, but copyright only applies to the chain. This means that you don't have copyright on a chain that's modified on an irrelevant point (like the colouring or the material it's made from), because then that's not a copy of the chain. This means that without patents people are free to take an invention, alter an irrelevant point and call it their own.
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Shades

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2010, 04:58:54 am »

Don't pin me down on this, because I'm not entirely sure about intellectual property, but I think that patents are broader and as such encompass stuff that are exactly the same but look slightly different.

Simply put yes, but under the current laws they cover a very wide area, so even a fundamentally different approach to building the bike chain would be covered (as it would still achieve the same task)

They require no proof or even attempt at application (the copyright would have required you to have actually designed said chain, where as there are patents granted for things that are impossible) and rely on court cases to resolve claims (which leads to a number of cases where a rich company has just bankrupted a patent holders company and bought it to acquire said patent).

And they last far too long. Even the twenty year official time is a very long time in the technical world, but in reality it's only a minor tweak in a patent scope to make a patent based on the first and so it lasts for as long as a company likes. Although this is true of copyright too there is less issue there due to scope.
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Euld

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2010, 09:06:09 am »

I'm still figuring out my views on copyrighted games and software, but as for books, I'm totally against pirating books, except maybe textbooks or those million and a half D&D books.  Pirating the books of authors who spend a few years of solo writing and then have to sell their books for maybe $20 at the most... there's something very cruel about pirating those books.

Shades

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #65 on: March 25, 2010, 09:33:38 am »

I'm still figuring out my views on copyrighted games and software, but as for books, I'm totally against pirating books, except maybe textbooks or those million and a half D&D books.  Pirating the books of authors who spend a few years of solo writing and then have to sell their books for maybe $20 at the most... there's something very cruel about pirating those books.

A few years is comparable to a lot of games, although publishers do push for the iteration a year concept, so how is that any different? Other than a team of 100 costs more than a solo author.
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Blacken

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2010, 09:50:47 am »

I'd just like to point out the logical fallacy of saying that people wouldn't be payed if copy protection wasn't enforced - people would still be selling and people would still be buying the unnamed product, the profits just wouldn't go to the original creator, it'd all go to whoever got their profit margins the lowest. Good show old bean, you can't expect to rest easy on you laurels forever in return for making a pretty pocket watch design!
Having enough time to actually fucking profit off it is the intent of intellectual property laws. Which are currently abused and overly long. So change the law (which is in favor of the large content cartels, not the little guy) instead of breaking the law because you don't like it.

Yeah, it's hard to change the law. Too effing bad. Put up or shut up.

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*ahem*... That's not to say 'whoo whoo go piracy, free markets are great fun and everyone profits!'. (Doubly so for data, which has overheads of, y'know... electrical costs of keeping the HDD powered and keeping the internet connection running.)
That's not fucking overhead--well, it is, but it's incredibly minor. The real overhead is paying the programmers and artists and designers to make the thing, amortized over the lifetime of the product (and, no, that doesn't really help your case at all, as most of those costs must be recouped within 12 to 24 months to be a worthwhile investment). I get that you guys are a little fuzzy on basic business practice, but you don't need to lie to try to prove your shitty point.

People won't make stuff in quantity if they can't make back the amortized cost of creation. Every goddamned pirate who chortles from Mom's basement as they download yet another game should realize that they are the ones who are going to be cutting off their own noses.

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if you're looking from it from a purely theoretical point of view, there's a fine line between protecting those who are creating 'ideas' and smothering further creativity with protectionism.
Not at all. You're not at all forbidden or prevented from innovating on your own. (Except by patents in certain areas--software patents are a bad thing, and should be repealed; unlike most of you lot I've called my Congressman and talked with him at length about the topic, so I'm actually doing something to change it; I'm also fully in favor of nondiscriminatory fair licensing rules for patents after the first, say, five years of registration.) Somebody who comes up with an idea  or creates a work gets a long enough period of time to effectively exploit it.

Copyright in particular doesn't prevent you from creating something, as it protects only the expression of the idea. Nut up and make your own, if you have the chops. If you don't have the chops, then what right have you to take their hard work without recompense?

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Regulated markets need to be carefully regulated or they end up just as stagnant as a totally free market. The examples just given of ye olde England and USA copyright laws being unenforced were, besides being totally irrelevant to digital piracy, good things imo.
See, this is the fun part. You think they're good things because you benefit. What do you create? What have you done to actually try to make a living off your work? Oh. Right. Sorry.

This is the beauty of the New Politics of the half-brained: it's plenty fine to take from those who can and those who do, because you don't feel like doing yourself. Doing it yourself? Why, that's just preposterous!

Miserable.

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(pretty much irrelevant edit: Am I the only one who finds it difficult to take the arguments of hardline proponents of either side seriously? Blacken's pissyness over piracy only comes from the fact that it's something that affects him (or her) and his (or her) interests. I'd bet that, were we to get any passionate downloaders here they'd do the same thing for the opposite side of the argument. When you're that biased it's just transparent preservation of self-interests, not a discussion anymore. It's kinda funny.)
I was against piracy before I became a software developer or before I wrote a book. Because I don't think fucking people over just so I can have GoreSplatter 8 without paying for it is right. I'm not so desperately reliant on other people's entertainment that I have to have it without paying for it.

But, then again...principles. Some have them, some fake them so they can get free shit. :)




Me not liking it has nothing to do with it. The term intellectual property was invented to make it seem as if you own what you create. You don't. What you create is owned by everyone and that is the entire point of copyright to encourage people to contribute to this common cultural heritage. When it stops doing that by allowing people to cling on to something indefinitely it is no longer serving it's function.
Haha. No. I do in fact own what I've created. That's the whole point of it. And guess what? Society has said that no, you are quite wrong in your holding that I do not. If you don't like that, change the law.

That said, as noted above, I do not approve of limitless copyright. There's no point to it if you want things to continue to be created. Ten to twenty years for consumer works, or, say, four years after the original creator (and thus licensor) goes out of business, whichever is earlier. That's fine by me.

What isn't is rationalizing piracy based on "oh, hurr, I don't like the law." Because it is a shit rationalization for taking things you want to have for free. You're not "fighting the man," because "the man" doesn't care. You're just fighting people trying to make a living.

But clearly their trying to make a living is trumped by your need to have something playing on your little TV, because God forbid you go make something yourself.
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Phmcw

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2010, 10:06:29 am »

Well, the big point for user right privation is "that is good for the economy". Just as most of bad argument, his one is not backed by anything. For instance there is several big company that use gpl. And the whole point of this license is to ensure the rights of the users.
Of course, patent are useful to a degree. But only if they are short, and not too broad.
This whole war on user right and his rage of patenting everything is about destroying fair concurrency.
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Jreengus

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2010, 10:06:56 am »

Blacken, I think you misunderstand I'm not trying to rationalise piracy, or saying the under the current system you don't own what you create. I'm just trying to point out that it has been corrupted from the original intention. Which I personally think is a bad thing. Imagine if say Santa was copyrighted, or if no-one could use Cthulhu without paying royalties. What would music be without the Amen break. This is pretty much what we are moving toward a world where artists are severely restricted because they lack that cultural heritage.

Does this mean piracy is morally acceptable? No. Does it mean copyright is wrong and should be changed? Yes.
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Phmcw

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2010, 10:30:23 am »

@Jeengus I do not agree with you : downloading, copying and lending an album to a friend illegally is morally right, buying it is wrong. For me of course, but as we are speaking about morality, you may disagree.
First of all, because these company are fighting a war against your freedom of speech and right to privacy, and it is a lot more important.
My second point is that you already pay a tax covering the alleged cost of piracy when you buy a cd or an hard drive.
My third point is that you may come to like a song or an album by listening it. Not by listening a mere sample. And then you may come to go to the concert and make the arist earn a lot more money.
My last point it that you are using a technology that allow you to do so. What is morally wrong is to make money using the work of someone else, without paying him. But not paying for the work of someone else is not wrong. As long as you don't comissioned the job.

And fuck all that mainstream art suck anyway. They can die, I surely won't miss them. But I try to contribute FREELY to the art I like, either by choosing to buy artwork, donating or creating.
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Boksi

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2010, 11:03:54 am »

Blacken, I'd like to note that merely reading your post made me angry. Not because I disagreed with you, no, but because you were being incredibly crabby and insulting about the whole thing.
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Areyar

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2010, 11:52:35 am »

I don't see how a software patent is any different from a music 'patent'.

Creating a code language is making a tool, tools are covered by patent.

Creating a game using a programming language, is not worthy of a patent as there is no fundamentally new technology or idea.
Of the content only new artwork should be copyrightable as most stories and plots and settings are mostly recycling.

Patenting ideas was a VERY bad idea IMHO. To return to the bicycle chain; a patent can be renewed by a minor alteration, but nobody else may patent an altered chain?
This is madness.

Another example of copyrights madness: I heard P.Steward say he wanted to sue the authors of Red Dwarf once, because the story revolves around a spaceship flying through space. When he actually watched, he realized it had absolutely no similarities to startrek beyond that superficial setting.

I am wholly for publishing companies to fight industrial scale piracy and copyright infringement, but this recent witchhunt on private people I find distasteful.
A person that profits materially from distribution of copyrighted materials, fine, go get him. Burt don't go attacking the people that like your products enough to share it.
I have shared online software of several games that I loved, but were otherwise unobtainable. I feel this was a service of love and only creates a greater public for the creators of those games, or at least services the existing fanbase and increases the programmers' hero stature.
(A game designer's star only shines as brightly as his latest game though. SidMeijer and WillWright have lost all my earlier goodwill with their latest abominations...yes, I bought Spore, it was not worth the 80Euros and years of anticipation.)
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Virex

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2010, 01:35:01 pm »

Well, the big point for user right privation is "that is good for the economy". Just as most of bad argument, his one is not backed by anything. For instance there is several big company that use gpl. And the whole point of this license is to ensure the rights of the users.
Of course, patent are useful to a degree. But only if they are short, and not too broad.

Define short please? Because a farmacutical company only has 5 years to make money off a patent (they spend a good 15 years of the patent time proving their stuff's actualy safe for use) and most IT-developers have even less time due to the fast developments on that area. Lots of code is outdated within 8 years, not to speak about the technology for creating chips which practicaly has a life time of less then 4 years.

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This whole war on user right and his rage of patenting everything is about destroying fair concurrency.
And that in itself is a pretty good thing I think. Let's take the example of Perlin Noise. It was invented in the 80's and never patented. Everyone and their grandmother used and uses it, but it took untill 1999 until the same Perlin invented simplex noise. Why did it take so long? Because there was no incentive to invent something new. The cost of inventing an improved noise function would not wheigh up to the development costs, because nobody could make money off the new noise type while the old one was freely availible.

@Jeengus I do not agree with you : downloading, copying and lending an album to a friend illegally is morally right, buying it is wrong. For me of course, but as we are speaking about morality, you may disagree.
First of all, because these company are fighting a war against your freedom of speech and right to privacy, and it is a lot more important.
In the case of some DRM's, I'll give you the privacy, but Free Speech? Seriously? Free speech as in the right to coppy others work without giving them credit? Sorry, but in this case I have to disagree. Free Speech isn't and can't be the end-all right you make it out to be, for aplethora of practical reasons.
You see, if an idea has no intrisic value, the best course of action is always, at any time, to wait untill someone esle thinks of it and optimises it.
You can either develop that wonderfull new polymer that will make cars safer then ever yourself and spend half a bilion dollars in development cost and building a pilot plant, or you can spend twenty million on a plant your competitor desinged.
You can either spend 3 years writing the best novel you can, or you can make money by actualy doing something that creates value, like scrubbing the street.
You see where I'm going? An idea has intrisic value, because for example, it either makes new things possible (as with the ploymer) or it causes entretainment (as with the book). If, however, the idea is freely replicatable, then that intrisic value can't ever come to benefit the one who optimised it, because he spent time and resources on it. Someone else, who spent no time on optimising it can gain the same benefits, without having invested anything in optimising it. I doubt you'll understand my point, but it's just not fair and it's going to cause some problems...
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My second point is that you already pay a tax covering the alleged cost of piracy when you buy a cd or an hard drive.
Were we discussing the fundamental objections to coppyright here, or just the current implementation in some parts of the world?
Good, then at least we can agree that things could be better. But not by removing coppyright as I am trying to show you.
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My third point is that you may come to like a song or an album by listening it. Not by listening a mere sample. And then you may come to go to the concert and make the arist earn a lot more money.
That is the reason some artists choose not to enforce their coppyright. But this is no reason to force every musician to give up their rights, let alone forcing writers or inventors to revoke their claim to their intelectual property.
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My last point it that you are using a technology that allow you to do so. What is morally wrong is to make money using the work of someone else, without paying him. But not paying for the work of someone else is not wrong. As long as you don't comissioned the job.
.... Seriously? You may not make money directly by pirating something, but you are denying the maker compensation for the value of the intelectual property he created. He invested hundereds of hours in his work and you're taking that time and saying "Fuck you, go work on a farm if you want to make money, because you're not getting mine!"
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And fuck all that mainstream art suck anyway. They can die, I surely won't miss them. But I try to contribute FREELY to the art I like, either by choosing to buy artwork, donating or creating.
Touchy are we? Someone stepped on your elitist ego?

I don't see how a software patent is any different from a music 'patent'.

Creating a code language is making a tool, tools are covered by patent.

Creating a game using a programming language, is not worthy of a patent as there is no fundamentally new technology or idea.
Of the content only new artwork should be copyrightable as most stories and plots and settings are mostly recycling.

But the artwork are just an arangment of pixels, that can't be novel! Besides that, all car models are basicly an assembly of plastic and metal, so they shouldn't have been patentable since the time someone made a phone from bakelite, as that's also an arrangement of plastic and metal!
Or let me give another example. If I'd invent a machine that would solve the traveling salesman problem quite rapidly, then I could, according to you, patent it. But if I write a piece of code, it suddenly isn't patentable anymore? Inventing a novel way to code something is as much an invention as creating a new bike chain. A game in itself isn't patentable, first of all because the idea has been around for more then 3 decades, secondly because the ones to make pac-man didn't patent it and thus nobody gets to patent it and lastly because that's probably to broad for a patent. But if the game uses fundamentaly new netcode to reduce lag, then that piece of code should be patentable, because it's an invention.
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Patenting ideas was a VERY bad idea IMHO. To return to the bicycle chain; a patent can be renewed by a minor alteration, but nobody else may patent an altered chain?
This is madness.
If you can prove that the alteration is in fact relevant, then you're free to patent the new chain. What I was talking about is irrelevant alterations. To give another example, if you'd invent a new way to make window glass, then coppyright only protects the glass of the same dimensions, while patents protect everything made in the same way. If, however, someone would come up with an even better way to make window glass, based upon your patent, they're free to patent that, because said patent differs on a relevant part.
(Note, this all is only true for the European patent laws, since in the US patent laws, producing something for research is not allowed either. Yes I do think the laws are wonky sometimes, but the idea is sound)
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Another example of copyrights madness: I heard P.Steward say he wanted to sue the authors of Red Dwarf once, because the story revolves around a spaceship flying through space. When he actually watched, he realized it had absolutely no similarities to startrek beyond that superficial setting.
Which is exactly why he would have lost the case.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 01:37:42 pm by Virex »
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Areyar

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2010, 02:56:35 pm »

So according to your travelling salesman example, a new mathematical algorithm is patentable.
This smells like bio-patenting.
I think patents and copyright should be applicable only to specific, applied things, not ideas or natural principles.
Newton didnt patent gravity nor will the Higgs boson be patented by CERN, likewise nor should biocompanies patent genes or whole organisms. They could patent applications derived from using the gene, such as improved PCR or a possible cure, but barring others from using the gene in their research is wrong. Like patenting a new slang word and then preventing others from using it in lyrics or commercials.
(eg DNA is just a language)
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LegoLord

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Re: Digital Piracy
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2010, 03:05:40 pm »

@Jeengus I do not agree with you : downloading, copying and lending an album to a friend illegally is morally right, buying it is wrong. For me of course, but as we are speaking about morality, you may disagree.
First of all, because these company are fighting a war against your freedom of speech and right to privacy, and it is a lot more important.
My second point is that you already pay a tax covering the alleged cost of piracy when you buy a cd or an hard drive.
My third point is that you may come to like a song or an album by listening it. Not by listening a mere sample. And then you may come to go to the concert and make the arist earn a lot more money.
My last point it that you are using a technology that allow you to do so. What is morally wrong is to make money using the work of someone else, without paying him. But not paying for the work of someone else is not wrong. As long as you don't comissioned the job.

And fuck all that mainstream art suck anyway. They can die, I surely won't miss them. But I try to contribute FREELY to the art I like, either by choosing to buy artwork, donating or creating.
You are not endearing yourself to anyone here, you know.  By the way, it is morally wrong to steal a pot that a potter spent hours making - whether or not you intend to fence it.  Should it not be wrong to steal a song that a musician spent days writing and practicing and recording, or a game that a game design team spent years working on artwork and programming for - whether or not you intend to redistribute it?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 03:07:19 pm by LegoLord »
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