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Author Topic: US House passes Health Care bill  (Read 22213 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #90 on: March 23, 2010, 03:25:48 pm »

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Haha.

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Yep, having an abortion is a completely easy process that's free of stress, pain and lasting guilt.  And liberals are obviously all closet eugenicists.

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As for healthcare being universal (which it won't even if this bill works as it's supposed to), one thing I'd highly recommend is still having people pay SOMETHING, even a small amount even if they're poor, for their health care. That makes them value it. When something is free people ignore it, they make doctor's appointments and don't keep them, they get expensive medications and then don't take them, leading to expensive complications, and so on. If people have to pay even a small co-pay, that will go a long way toward making sure people use their healthcare more responsibly.
A possibility, but where would the money go to?  If it goes to the government that's additional buerocracy, if it goes to the doctor it's a perverse incentive to prescribe unnecessary medicine.
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G-Flex

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #91 on: March 23, 2010, 03:47:48 pm »

I sincerely doubt that government-provided health care in other countries has ever incited people to not care if they break their limbs or get horribly ill.
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #92 on: March 23, 2010, 04:19:14 pm »

Okay, this discussion has devolved into an argument between about four people. So, I'm going to throw something else out there for people to argue about.  ;D

1. Why does the government need to provide health care?

2. Where will the government get the money to pay for said health care?

3. Is the government even capable of providing inexpensive, thorough health coverage and insurance to everyone?

4. What makes a government program better than the free-market system that we had until a few days ago?
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G-Flex

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #93 on: March 23, 2010, 04:34:29 pm »

1. Why does the government need to provide health care?

Because it's generally considered the public duty to provide basic needs to those who can't afford them in a developed country where doing so is feasible. We already do this with several other needs, like food and shelter.

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2. Where will the government get the money to pay for said health care?

Don't pretend that poor people having no health insurance doesn't cost you (if you live in the US) money now. It already does. I'll explain more below.

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3. Is the government even capable of providing inexpensive, thorough health coverage and insurance to everyone?

The intent behind this particular legislation is not to provide government-provided health insurance for absolutely everything. This is an extremely off-kilter interpretation of what this is all about. It's about providing it to people who wouldn't otherwise have it at all.

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4. What makes a government program better than the free-market system that we had until a few days ago?

The free-market system still exists. Apparently you have no clue what the bill is actually about, so maybe you should read up on it a bit before speaking. I can't stress this part enough.


At any rate, there are all kinds of people right now who flat-out don't have and can't afford insurance: The unemployed, college students, people of very low income, etc. Even the elderly, with Medicare, often need supplementary insurance, and often can't afford that.



Here's the thing. People not having health insurance still costs you  money and does so in a more inefficient manner than providing them health insurance does.

Imagine a poor family with no health insurance. They aren't likely to have a regular physician with regular appointments for themselves or their children, for obvious reasons. This makes them more likely to become ill (or otherwise require treatment) in the first place, and gives them incentive to "wait it out, in case it's nothing" or otherwise gamble a bit with their health when they do need treatment, or to otherwise ignore their own health problems since they can't afford treatment.

Now, let's say their kid seriously does need treatment for something. In many cases, they wind up at, say, the ER, where they can't be turned down. This is extremely wasteful, because those hospital services aren't designed to handle things that a general practitioner at a private practice would be doing. It's overkill, and it doesn't work effectively. The kid ends up seeing a doctor who has never seen the kid before, and after they're sent home, there's absolutely no follow-up, which can be rather harmful and increases the chances of things going wrong again. In other words, there's no rapport with the patients, and the wrong services wind up being used to render the treatment.

In addition to this, the simple fact of people being sick more often, and in worse ways (as a result of what I just mentioned) is a drain on society and its resources. It's not good for anyone for people to get more sick more often.

My sister works at a local children's hospital and sees this kind of stuff all the time. People being unable to properly afford health care causes severe problems in the system, and is a drain on resources anyway.


Basically, what I'm getting at here is that even if poor people cannot afford health care, they're still going to get it one way or another; it would be inhumane and antisocial for society to completely turn down treatment of them, even in areas where free clinics are sparse or don't exist.

In effect, it's more productive for society as a whole and more efficient to simply make sure that people can afford health care when they need it, because the costs of people being unable to afford it are passed on to everyone else regardless, even in a slightly less direct manner, and the end result is far worse in general.
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Andir

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #94 on: March 23, 2010, 04:52:28 pm »

Because it's generally considered the public duty to provide basic needs to those who can't afford them in a developed country where doing so is feasible. We already do this with several other needs, like food and shelter.
I pay for my own food and shelter, thank you!  And it's not illegal for me to stop doing so if I please.  Technically, I can stop working and paying taxes as well and I wouldn't have to pay for what I think you are referring to (homeless shelters and food stamps?) but it would still be illegal for me to not get health insurance.  That's kind of messed up if you ask me.  I don't buy the idea of protecting a person against their own self.
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dreiche2

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #95 on: March 23, 2010, 04:57:30 pm »

What about the fire department and the police department? What about obligatory car insurance?
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Aqizzar

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #96 on: March 23, 2010, 04:57:56 pm »

Your state government already requires by law that you buy driver insurance.  You lost that fight decades ago.

Not that I agree with the situation mind you.  I'm very keenly interested in the already-filed lawsuits to dispute the Constitutionality of requiring people to purchase a privately produced service, and how that could ever be enforced.

For that matter, it was such a disputed question in Congress as well, that for the time being anyway the "penalty" for not buying health insurance is a fine of $0.  So I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over it just yet.
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #97 on: March 23, 2010, 05:01:59 pm »

It's too easy to get a drivers license. Have you seen the idiots on the road and in the DMV?

I'm mortally afraid of driving with them sometimes.

That being said, it's sad that any idiot can "raise" a kid too...

Phmcw

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #98 on: March 23, 2010, 05:02:42 pm »

I don't buy the idea of protecting a person against their own self.
Well, where I live not doing so is a felony. And it's right.
You need health care, food, and shelter. We can get them all from the governement if something goes wrong, here in Belgium. 750 euro a month minimum, free health care and social shelter. Maybe we are richer? No just look it up. So what?
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #99 on: March 23, 2010, 05:06:15 pm »

@G-Flex:

About this "public duty..." Where do you derive this from? I'm not aware of anything in the Constitution that mentions public duty. Are you deriving this from your personal sense of morality and fairness?

Yes, there are negative externalities associated with people around you becoming sick. I however do not think that it is as large as the taxes that will be associated with the new health care plan. It costs me a little, but not enough to make me want to pay taxes to fix it.

You have still not convinced me that other people not having insurance will cost me, aside from in extreme situations like car accidents. I believe that it is unlikely that I will be in a situation where the other person's lack of insurance will be an issue to me, and I am willing to take the risk.

As for the free market system, the new health care bill is imposing regulations and restrictions on private health care businesses that will make it impossible for them to stay in business. By forbidding insurance companies to drop people and imposing limits on rates, et cetera, the government will drive insurance companies out of business.

Long-term result? The government is the only provider of insurance. Sounds like a monopoly to me. They say that the health care bill encourages competition? Something tells me that this is not true.

In effect, it's more productive for society as a whole and more efficient to simply make sure that people can afford health care when they need it, because the costs of people being unable to afford it are passed on to everyone else regardless, even in a slightly less direct manner, and the end result is far worse in general.

I would argue that the solution to this would be to lower unemployment. How? Reduce taxes on businesses, both large and small. They will have more money, and will be able to expand and hire more people. Reduce unemployment benefits. If someone gets paid for not working, why should they get a job? Reduce income taxes. This will leave people with more disposable income, and encourage unemployed people to find jobs.
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G-Flex

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #100 on: March 23, 2010, 05:15:24 pm »

I pay for my own food and shelter, thank you!

I was referring to people who can't afford it. Obviously, if you pay for your own, you can afford it.

Quote
And it's not illegal for me to stop doing so if I please.  Technically, I can stop working and paying taxes as well and I wouldn't have to pay for what I think you are referring to (homeless shelters and food stamps?) but it would still be illegal for me to not get health insurance.  That's kind of messed up if you ask me.  I don't buy the idea of protecting a person against their own self.

The issue here is that the bill doesn't do enough. It's pretending to supply poor people with health care while still not doing a hell of a lot to accomplish that, and still working within the free-market broken-as-hell insurance system even in those cases, because it faced so much obstruction that it couldn't be passed without essentially being watered down to nothing. So yeah, you get bullshit like "you HAVE to get insurance" (I think) but there aren't enough provisions for people who can't actually afford it.


As for the free market system, the new health care bill is imposing regulations and restrictions on private health care businesses that will make it impossible for them to stay in business. By forbidding insurance companies to drop people and imposing limits on rates, et cetera, the government will drive insurance companies out of business.

Long-term result? The government is the only provider of insurance. Sounds like a monopoly to me. They say that the health care bill encourages competition? Something tells me that this is not true.

You don't know how the health care bill works. The bill does not provide government-provided insurance at all. The government is not providing the insurance. The public option was killed ages ago and is not in the bill as it was signed, and has not been for a while.

So no, it's not a monopoly at all. Oh, and good luck driving every insurance provider out of business when it's a service that everyone in the country is mandated to have.

I will seriously bet you any amount of money that health insurance companies will still exist and be profitable by 20 years from now, provided health care legislation doesn't change by then.

But it's obvious you're going by information that isn't actually true or well-researched at all, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering.

I would argue that the solution to this would be to lower unemployment. How? Reduce taxes on businesses, both large and small. They will have more money, and will be able to expand and hire more people. Reduce unemployment benefits. If someone gets paid for not working, why should they get a job? Reduce income taxes. This will leave people with more disposable income, and encourage unemployed people to find jobs.

Significant levels of unemployment always exist and are necessary to exist for the market to function. There is no way to eliminate this, and even if you tried, there will always necessarily be times when the economy is facing some sort of trouble that causes there to simply not be enough jobs available. Also, there is such a thing as a person who's disabled, elderly, or otherwise incapable of work.

In other words, there will always be cases where there simply aren't enough jobs around, or where people cannot work through no fault of their own. There is no denying this.
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Aqizzar

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #101 on: March 23, 2010, 05:19:17 pm »

Oh boy, here we go.

As for the free market system, the new health care bill is imposing regulations and restrictions on private health care businesses that will make it impossible for them to stay in business. By forbidding insurance companies to drop people and imposing limits on rates, et cetera, the government will drive insurance companies out of business.

Long-term result? The government is the only provider of insurance. Sounds like a monopoly to me. They say that the health care bill encourages competition? Something tells me that this is not true.

Health insurance is already monopolized, because every state has its own laws on how health insurance can operate, and health insurance providers are the only industry specifically exempted from the Sherman Antitrust Act.  In every state, there is one or maybe two companies who provide 80+% of health insurance policies, and you can't buy across state lines.  This bill is supposed to fix those things.

Driving them out of business...  Well first of all, there are no limits on rates.  None.  Whatsoever.  That's one reason why so many liberals are pissed off, because there are no cost controls or price restrictions of any kind.  Now, there is the spending-outlay requirement I talked about before.  I suggest you go back and read it, since it does fundamentally reshape the market.  As for not being able to drop people because they get sick (which is exactly why they have insurance in the first place) or because they already had some health condition before, well, what, you think the status quo until yesterday was a good thing?  That you could pay into an insurance policy for years, only to be dumped off it just because you tried to use it?

Health insurance companies are one of the largest, most profitable industries in the country, and spend about 30% of their outlay on actual medical services.  I think they'll survive.

I would argue that the solution to this would be to lower unemployment. How? Reduce taxes on businesses, both large and small. They will have more money, and will be able to expand and hire more people. Reduce unemployment benefits. If someone gets paid for not working, why should they get a job? Reduce income taxes. This will leave people with more disposable income, and encourage unemployed people to find jobs.

I had to stop myself, because I really don't want to touch this one.  America already has one of the lowest business tax rates of any industrial country, and that has never once ever caused unemployment to drop.  And for someone griping and moaning about the federal debt, why is reducing the government's one source of income the solution to everything?
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lumin

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #102 on: March 23, 2010, 05:32:08 pm »

If someone gets paid for not working, why should they get a job? Reduce income taxes. This will leave people with more disposable income, and encourage unemployed people to find jobs.

This is so true.  My kids cannot afford health insurance through my company and I make slightly over the limit on the public SCHIP program.  In order for my kids to qualify for insurance I will have to take several vacations from work so I make less money this year.  In other words, the government is telling me to STOP being employed to get their health coverage.  Something is seriously wrong with government if that's the message they are sending us.

Shouldn't it be the other way around?  Shouldn't we tax the poor the most and tax the rich the least, so everyone is motivated to work their hardest and contribute to the economy?  Shouldn't I be rewarded for hard work and competence rather than laziness and incompetence?  The USA already has the highest corporate tax rate on the planet and we wonder why jobs are going over seas.

Anyway, back on topic.  The bottom line here is that the Constitution does not allow for the Federal Govt to force someone to buy anything, which is what the Health Bill does.  In fact, for those using Federal Highways as an example, they are Unconstitutional as well.  The states are more than capable of funding those, especially if we did not have state funding going toward the government for federal programs.

What's funny here is that if the federal and state health taxes (SS, Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP) were to stop coming out of my employee paycheck every week, I would be able more than capable of paying for my families own health insurance.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 05:34:20 pm by lumin »
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #103 on: March 23, 2010, 05:35:15 pm »

Oop. I just realized that the bill version I was reading was from October 2009. *facepalm*

So, yeah... I admit to being not as informed as I should've been. I just downloaded the text that got passed, and am proceeding to pick it apart. I will return once I read up on it a bit more and revise my opinions and arguments.
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LegoLord

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Re: US House passes Health Care bill
« Reply #104 on: March 23, 2010, 05:40:07 pm »

I would argue that the solution to this would be to lower unemployment. How? Reduce taxes on businesses, both large and small. They will have more money, and will be able to expand and hire more people. Reduce unemployment benefits. If someone gets paid for not working, why should they get a job? Reduce income taxes. This will leave people with more disposable income, and encourage unemployed people to find jobs.
You forget that the people who manage the business are in it to make money, not provide jobs to improve the economy;  they're generally either selfish or just don't understand how what they do affects people.  Generally, when such a thing is done with taxes, the company will just opt to have roughly the same number of employees as before and just get an increased income.
The USA already has the highest corporate tax rate on the planet and we wonder why jobs are going over seas.
I could have sworn someone had just posted something saying just the opposite . . . oh well.  But that's not why jobs are going over seas.  Corporations generally move towards the most profitable option, and overseas jobs cost them less.  Whether taxed more or not, they would still do that.
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