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[Cthulhu]

I don't know where he got his, but there's this.

[Jreengus]

There are no private insurance price ceilings or cost controls.

As it should. We have to protect the free market.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not. A fully free market is good for no-one. I don't think anyone seriously advocates a fully free market because such a system would screw it's self over as fast as possible.

[Aqizzar]

It makes it affordable to people who would otherwise be unable to afford it.

It does virtually nothing to reduce the costs except make everyone pay...  you can argue that that alone will bring down the costs, but that would be cancelled out by the fact that everyone's premiums WILL be going up because they will be forced to give very expensive treatment to those that didn't have it before.  Sure, more people will have access to it, but that's not going to drive costs down.  It's going to inflate costs and we'll continue to feed money into it from places where we have no money.  Just like social security and other government programs.  They always run out of money.

I don't know where you're getting the "[government programs] always run out of money" part.  Nothing has ever "run out of money" that wasn't supposed to, and Medicare and Social Security are only theorized too because the whole damn government is spending so much more money than it makes.

However - That still doesn't apply to this bill some much, because the government is paying for virtually nothing that it wasn't already paying for with Medicare.  All the insurance is still private, or at most, government managed but not specifically paid for.  Where it will, hopefully, maybe, make private insurance cheaper is a nice "fuck you" clause inserted into the system just recently.  I keep forgetting about it, but it's one of the most beautiful rules I've ever seen, and only was just reminded of.

It will be illegal for a medical insurance provider company to allocate less than 80% (or so) of its spending to medical-cost reimbursements.  Bam.  The major health insurance providers currently spend an average of 30-35% of their cashflow on medical stuff.  The rest is advertising, lobbying, overhead, and salaries.  Combined with the total-coverage mandate, you quickly hit market-saturation of everybody paying for coverage and only using so much medical care, that insurance rates will have to drop so that the companies don't make themselves illegal by earning more money than they can spend.

Hopefully.  Of course, I can think of a half-dozen ways to move money or price points around to still meet that 80% limit without dropping prices a penny.  And it raises even more questions than the mandate laws about how that spending-requirement will be investigated and enforced.  If it winds up anything like the privatized regulation of banking, which wouldn't surprise me at all, you're no less fucked over than before.  But at least the laws will be there.

There are no private insurance price ceilings or cost controls.

As it should. We have to protect the free market.

I'm not sure if you're serious or not.

It caught me off guard when I saw it too, but it's Servant Corps saying it.  He's a 200 Juice Elite Liberal all the way.  Facetious, I'm sure.

[Andir]

Hopefully.  Of course, I can think of a half-dozen ways to move money or price points around to still meet that 80% limit without dropping prices a penny.  And it raises even more questions than the mandate laws about how that spending-requirement will be investigated and enforced.  If it winds up anything like the privatized regulation of banking, which wouldn't surprise me at all, you're no less fucked over than before.  But at least the laws will be there.

There seems to be a lot of hope surrounding all this

If you can think of half a dozen ways, someone else has thought of them, and more.  For instance... if I were face with spending 80%, in order to increase the 20% income, I'd have to increase the 100% cost.  MRI's for everyone!  I kid, but I see you at least understand that there are holes.

And multiple programs run out of money... they just keep getting surges of money from the reserve to continue.

[Aqizzar]

And multiple programs run out of money... they just keep getting surges of money from the reserve to continue.

That's how the United States federal budget works.  Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, interest on the debt, and the physical government infrastructure (and probably some other little expense, I don't have my list handy) are the only spending programs whose funding is automatic and mandatory.  All other programs, from the whole dang military to the smallest reimbursement, have to be regularly repassed and appropriated, or they automatically cancel out for lack of funding.

That's what happened in 1994 and nearly happened a few months ago, when the respectful opposition promised to filibuster everything and shut down the legislature, and all the money turned off.  It's specifically set up that way so that niggling little programs don't linger on for decades just because there's not enough support to vote for their repeal; they can just be defunded by letting them go.

[Heron TSG]

I found it by copying and enlarging the image at the debtclock site.

[Tilla]

http://i.imgur.com/590Ev.png

[Phmcw]

I don't get it : how can you believe that a proper health care will ruin America when all this spending will be in favor of American hospital, doctor and for a big part, American medicine.
I mean, the huge trade deficit, and virtual immunity to taxes of big earner is obviously much more a problem.

Health care is expensive, but it also is a basic needs. I really don't see what's to discuss.
You have to get it, the basic assurance must refund all necessary treatment, and you can play with free market when that is covered.
Namely whether or not your individual room is covered and so on.

[Aqizzar]

http://i.imgur.com/590Ev.png

Saved forever.  Y'know, I think that might be my old economics professor.  He wasn't a /b/tard, but he knew the place, and that certainly sounds like his style and crappy typing.

[Jude]

News flash for those who have their heads in the sand: the Congressional Budget Office says the bill will actually reduce the national deficit in the long run. I know you're just going to dismiss that as nothing but groundless speculation, but I also know that if they'd said it would massively increase the deficit then you'd all be quoting it left and right

Also people who can't afford to buy insurance will have it subsidized so this notion that it's forcing another bill onto people who can't afford it is wrong

Also the idea that everyone who's uninsured is deathly ill with expensive ailments is clearly wrong, a huge amount of them are people exactly like me, namely, 20-somethings who aren't covered by their parents' insurance and since they are 20-something, think they're invincible and/or don't see health insurance as a top priority given a limited budget. These people are the cheapest to insure since we don't use very many medical services and tend not to develop expensive illnesses.

Also, any argument against this bill based in financial conservativism or strict small government constitutionalism has to be checked for the following hypocrisy: does the person making it support the spending of over half the national budget on the military, and do they support the foreign wars, military aid to other countries, and all manner of other overseas operation of US troops? If so, their argument has no merit since there's never been a bigger violation of conservativism than the hugely bloated US military. People want to bitch about being forced to buy health insurance? How about being forced to sign up for selective service? What the hell's the rationale of THAT? The government can force you into military service? Isn't the whole idea behind conservativism that the government rules strictly by consent of the governed? If the governed were that eager to fight some enemy to preserve the government, they'd do it voluntarily and there'd never be any need for a draft. By letting the country be invaded and not doing anything about it they'd be saying they didn't mind the government being destroyed. And how can a government claim to be conservative or true to the constitution when it's running a military costing amounts of money the founding fathers couldn't have even dreamed of, all to run all sorts of matters overseas? Talk about big government.

Anyway I'm off topic and pretty sleepy, in conclusion, I'm sick to death of hearing about this stupid bill but I have a feeling I'm never gonna hear the end of it, at least not until I'm out of this godforsaken country where a progressive president's huge triumph is to get us a slightly less shitty healthcare system that still looks like a bucket of assholes compared to that of any other developed country.

[Itnetlolor]

http://i.imgur.com/590Ev.png

Saved forever.  Y'know, I think that might be my old economics professor.  He wasn't a /b/tard, but he knew the place, and that certainly sounds like his style and crappy typing.

Holy hell, that was epic.

I think I've heard (and got enough bad feelings) enough to finally speak up.

Here's where and why a majority (IE- nearly all) republicans, and myself as a self-proclaimed political "True Independent" (Simply meaning non-voter, non-3rd party associate, etc.; IE- "Whatever I say will be ignored anyhow; but why not be a non-biased voice anyway?").

Universal healthcare as it stands is a hazard in the making. First off, what will happen when you give reckless people the same care as people that need some serious help? Ever watch Jackass? Now they'll be everywhere. Stack atop that, with abortions being funded by the government "backed up" by those against abortions is just asking for a civil war making the Republicans the bad guys, along with just about every other conservative (again, I'm as neutral as you can get; and even I can see this as a possibility of happening). "As technology progresses, morals decline." is a statement I recall my grandmother stating some time ago, and it's got a haunting feel to it now.

With the passing of this, morality will be none more than a passing nightmare to the nation, and there will be no limits to what can be researched, how the "materials" will be acquired (Stem cells anyone? Those are usually made/researched from the remains of aborted fetuses (whole babies), some of them almost complete children. Quicker progress, but monsterous process. This will be funded by those entirely against it; and more supporting alternative methods which are just as effective.). Follow along with that, the reckless youth and the lack of proper sexual education and all sorts of things related (teen pregnancies and etc.) and declining morals throughout the media and society; this can get ugly fast. Plus, just in case many "out there" fears are true; we're dying from the inside, and passing this, although with healing results in the beginning... Well, venom is a funny thing.

Okay, sure, our economy will begin to balance out and all sorts of people will be fixed up in hospitals, but you gotta remember, doctors and pharmacists are human too, and just in case they get a massive pay-cut as a result of this as well, alot of people will get screwed over big time through all sorts of prejudice and etc.. Ranging from the doctors themselves, and especially the patients.

We'll have a universal healthcare system which everyone will be taken care of, and live a longer life with minimized sacrifice. But as I usually feel about free things, "what's the catch?" is always one of my first questions. At what real cost is this universal health care really? Why it's delay to act (until November)? Why did the Democrats need to wangle an easier way to "Yay"? Why so much insistence and power behind this bill?

Personally, I have a reeeeeeeeeally bad feeling about this, and I'm going to do what I can to dodge this giant ball of crap and stay away from that really fast windmill. My bad feelings have been proven right so many times, I think I have right to get paranoid now.

[Heron TSG]

I want to know where people get the idea that technology will make us evil? Saruman using wheels?

[Itnetlolor]

I want to know where people get the idea that technology will make us evil? Saruman using wheels?

Summary:
Rise of Internet -> 4chan
Funded abortions -> careless youth (sexually) and possible "behind the scenes" genocide (One said "out there" theory. Slow process, but keep the numbers in check until a "big reveal".)
Social Virtualization (certain ero games and such) -> lower social interactivity / greater dangers to society (I know, but it's among the listed possibilities)
Better healthcare -> more youthful (as well as young-minded adults) recklessness
Automation -> quality control (to better the income of the producer at the expense of the consumer)

The list goes on. It's simple, think up any kind of advancement, and think of the social consequences in which morals are involved. Take it to the most extreme; and now you have a bad-case scenario. If you can top that off, then it's a worst-case scenario.

[cowofdoom78963]

and there will be no limits to what can be researched, how the "materials" will be acquired (Stem cells anyone? Those are usually made/researched from the remains of aborted fetuses (whole babies), some of them almost complete children. Quicker progress, but monsterous process.

Good thing for pluripotent stem cells being researched.

[Zironic]

>Right whines
>Left whines

I agree, This bill will be the basis for change over time, as long as we as a whole stop ELECTING AN ENTIRE GROUP OF CORRUPT PIGS AND ANIMALS...