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[Jim Groovester]

Funny game show post.

This is perfect.

EliDupree conceals the goblin behind doors, and he even has a dwarf running around to open them.

Alright, Mistem, show us what's behind Door Number Three! It's the goblin!

[EliDupree]

I don't really understand why you'd bother with that if you can just make adamantine at a smelter. Cheating is cheating, you know.

I can only answer for myself - "Cheating" is important to think about if your goal in playing the game is for being challenged at winning or being successful in the game. I'm in it to be challenged to find interesting ways to do things, and the game mechanics are the world I'm given. If I was concerned about whether what I am doing makes sense in real-life terms, I would have to get really frustrated whenever I had to work around an unrealistic game mechanic that acts against me instead of being exploitable.

Modding isn't "cheating"; it's just playing a different game. In exactly the same way, playing "Dwarf Fortress: All Exploits Allowed" isn't cheating - it's just playing a different game.

[NW_Kohaku]

Following that logic, should childbirth be considered the same as murder? It's just murder in reverse, after all.

HA!  Well, you are generating a life that will someday die, so ultimately...

But let's take that metaphor another way - If you drive a car 30 miles to the east, then drive back home by travelling west, did you just undo all the miles that you drove?  Or did you drive 60 miles?

Anyway, no, I'm saying that changing the game for the purpose of modifying the difficulty to suit your own purposes - whether it is more difficult or less dificult - is still modifying the game.  Why is it only "cheating" if you are doing it in a way that gives you a benefit, or makes something easier?  Isn't altering the game to make it more challenging, or take away a benefit still altering the game just as much?  It's just that people can claim that they are better players, and hence it is a positive thing, if they do it in a way that makes the game harder, while it is "cheating", and a negative thing when it is to make the game easier, even though they are basically doing the same thing.

[kotekzot]

I wouldn't say cheating is bad, since it doesn't really affect anybody else. The worst case scenario is somebody posting about how they drawbridged a goblin siege and how it was "so cool, you guys". And yes, I can understand the hacker mentality that makes people find interesting ways to change things. Replicating something that was already discovered (and is inefficient) just seems useless to me.

[LegoLord]

Well, look at it this way; he's challenged himself to "cheat" in what ways he can without modding.

[NW_Kohaku]

Actually, I just thought of a better example...

Using designating walls and suspending construction is an exploit.

Playing the game "normally" involves having dwarves wall themselves in until they starve.

Are you a cheater if you use an exploit to prevent something that is part of the normal game that is detrimental to your efforts, as well as being very, very stupid, from happening?

[kotekzot]

This is ridiculous. Adamantine being scarce is intended. Dwarves walling themselves in is a result of not enough work being dedicated to the AI.

[NW_Kohaku]

This is ridiculous. Adamantine being scarce is intended. Dwarves walling themselves in is a result of not enough work being dedicated to the AI.

So using an exploit is fine only when it corrects a bug is what you're saying, correct?

[Asmodeous]

This is ridiculous. Adamantine being scarce is intended. Dwarves walling themselves in is a result of not enough work being dedicated to the AI.

So using an exploit is fine only when it corrects a bug is what you're saying, correct?

You're arguing for the sake of argument at this point, Kohaku. He's made it pretty clear that exploiting is fine regardless, he just doesn't see the point in it. More specifically, he doesn't see the point in putting that much work into cheating when you could cheat a different way and accomplish the same goal a thousand times more easily.

That's all he said. He never said "You're a dirty horrible cheater and therefore no one will ever love you" or any such nonsense.

He said "You know it would be a lot easier to just mod in a reaction, because cheating is cheating."

That's all.

[kotekzot]

No, that is not what I'm saying. An exploit is using the game mechanics to play the game the way it wasn't intended to be played by its creator.

But Asmodeous is right, this has gotten way out of hand. I shouldn't have expected any less from the veteran of the coopers thread. That'll be my last post in this thread, unless I have something to add to the actual topic.

[Bauglir]

-snip-

[Asmodeous]

Y'know, that brings to mind. I will never understand why everyone seems to think that the minute someone says "Y'know, that is cheating." in relation to a single player game immediately means they're calling the cheater a douchebag. Could it be they're just pointing out that it's cheating? I don't think they ever told them to stop.

The only downside to cheating in a SP game is you don't get to really brag about how awesome you are for winning the game. Well, you can, but everyone will roll their eyes at you. Otherwise, you've affected absolutely nothing, which is why SP games like Doom and whatnot all included cheat codes. So people could dork around with them and have a blast.

Being defensive about having cheated in a SP game (wherein the only person whom was cheated is one's self) strikes me as a bit odd. Cheating in a MP game? Sure. Cheating in a SP game? Who cares?


And don't get me wrong Bauglir, I understand that there's a sense of accomplishment in it, but man that's a lot of work for harvesting excess adamantine.

Hehe.

[Bauglir]

-snip-

[Asmodeous]

Yeah, I think the massive adamantine megaproject is praiseworthy, but if *I* were trying to do that, I would likely just mod in a reaction to make wafers out of a butt-ton of stones at the smelter. It'd still cost a lot, but it'd basically just substitute atom-smashing for wafer-manufacturing and give me the excess adamant to make the megaproject with. . .

Doing it with bolts just... man. I couldn't imagine the patience.

[NW_Kohaku]

You're arguing for the sake of argument at this point, Kohaku. He's made it pretty clear that exploiting is fine regardless, he just doesn't see the point in it. More specifically, he doesn't see the point in putting that much work into cheating when you could cheat a different way and accomplish the same goal a thousand times more easily.

That's all he said. He never said "You're a dirty horrible cheater and therefore no one will ever love you" or any such nonsense.

He said "You know it would be a lot easier to just mod in a reaction, because cheating is cheating."

That's all.

I'm sorry, are you under the impression I'm being angry or vengeful here?

I'm just playing with an idea, here.  "Argument for argument's sake" isn't terribly far off, but I'd rather just say that I'd like to change a point of view, if I can.  I just think it is silly to consider one kind of exploit or modding of a game fine, but another kind of exploit to be worthy of a derogatory term, like "cheating".

No, that is not what I'm saying. An exploit is using the game mechanics to play the game the way it wasn't intended to be played by its creator.

And isn't using wall designation to herd dwarves something the game wasn't intended to have players use?  It's simply a workaround, but it's still an exploit.

I shouldn't have expected any less from the veteran of the coopers thread. That'll be my last post in this thread, unless I have something to add to the actual topic.

You're as much a "veteran", oh caller of "retard fight". 

Something you (and possibly Asmodeus) have to realize is that I post for fun as much as any other reason, because I like seeing other people's reactions and other points of views.  Hopefully, I might even influence a point of view.  That's far from trolling or getting in an angry huff.

Y'know, that brings to mind. I will never understand why everyone seems to think that the minute someone says "Y'know, that is cheating." in relation to a single player game immediately means they're calling the cheater a douchebag. Could it be they're just pointing out that it's cheating? I don't think they ever told them to stop.

The only downside to cheating in a SP game is you don't get to really brag about how awesome you are for winning the game. Well, you can, but everyone will roll their eyes at you. Otherwise, you've affected absolutely nothing, which is why SP games like Doom and whatnot all included cheat codes. So people could dork around with them and have a blast.

Being defensive about having cheated in a SP game (wherein the only person whom was cheated is one's self) strikes me as a bit odd. Cheating in a MP game? Sure. Cheating in a SP game? Who cares?

And don't get me wrong Bauglir, I understand that there's a sense of accomplishment in it, but man that's a lot of work for harvesting excess adamantine.

Hehe.

Argument for argument's sake, here, Asmodeus? 

Anyway, yes, I essentially agree, and was trying to make a similar point.  The problem is that "cheating" is a term with an inherent negative connotation.  "Modding" has no negative connotation.  Both, ultimately, describe the same general idea, though: changing the game.