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[Kogan Loloklam]

Alpha means the game is prior to beta, beta means not released. Bugs can still be dismissed by alpha developers because "It'll be changed soon anyway."

Toady himself has done that a few times. This is alright when you aren't requiring your game testers to PAY to play the game.

The problem with alpha development is you require your testers to pay to play, and such a game may or may not reach completion. Often it is only the features that aren't in yet that would be worth paying as much is asked for, and the alpha developer often overprices their features and "discounts" it in a scheme to get more cash flow than he'd normally get. This is what I think Minecraft is doing.

Those who are messing themselves over the crafting system in it, take a look at Vantage's system.
It happens to be free. He is making his money by marketing the engine in it to developers. There is more than one way to make money, and grifting your potential market is generally the worst way to go about it.

Sure, maybe you'll find a pay for alpha company that won't screw you over. Heck, I'd go so far to say it is possible as many as half of them out there deliver on their promise. So flip a coin and tell me if minecraft will be one of them. You can spend your money on it. I'll save mine until its done. Maybe it'll be worth the $30 then, but I am not going to play Russian Roulette with my funds in the hopes an alpha is good enough for $15, or that it'll even survive to make it to beta.

[Dabi]

I remember wurm, it was horrible for me. I spent $100 or so and a couple months later lost everything, so i quit and lost my investment which i didn't get back due to the "Fun" factor. I then learned he "told" everyone they can get their investment back in a new character - O Rly? wheres my email?

Anyway, I also brought cortex commander and I enjoy that game. It's a fun sandbox game in my view.


But still, he brought up something about mine-craft having df maps and now were ranting(Partly my fault) on comparing prices of the games...come on guys.

[Alrenous]

Your link is broken.
Using my Google-fu, I found the website doesn't have the necessary information anyway, but taking an educated guess based on a screenshot, it's obvious you haven't looked at minecraft's actual system. Which I would detail, but there's youtube. And the wiki.
But I'm glad you like Vantage. World needs more good games, no?

There is more than one way to make money, and grifting your potential market is generally the worst way to go about it.

Yes, I'm sure Notch sits in his room and cackles about how well his evil plan is working. There's also the possibility that Notch hasn't thought about it, as he wanted to get to the coding part.

Often it is only the features that aren't in yet that would be worth paying as much is asked for

Technically speaking there's a risk it will never be finished.

So...should nobody be allowed to take risks with their money, or only gamers?
Is it everyone who can't tell how much the things they buy are worth, or only gamers?
If you pay for a feature that doesn't exist, and it fails to ever exist, it's not the developer's fault. You took their promises seriously, you were wrong.

Economically, a 50% discount exactly corresponds to a 50% risk it will never be finished. Based on reading Notch's tumblr (which I read because it's interesting), and based on the things that Notch has delivered in the past, I would say the risk is considerably lower. If I'm right, if you want minecraft, it's statistically a good buy. A great buy, actually, since it also gets you into alpha testing, if you're into that sort of thing.

Look, if you can't tell there's a risk the alpha will never be finished, and buy as if it's zero risk, you're just a fool. Someone that foolish can't realistically be protected, in general, without treating them like a child. Because, functionally, they are a child.

I wonder how many people I've fooled into thinking I spent the $10 on minecraft. But, I personally appreciate Notch giving me the opportunity to take that risk, if I wanted to. Perhaps there are better revenue models, that would make similar or more money for Notch, and allow minecraft to be free. I won't dispute that. However, there is a cost associated with finding and implementing that model, and I can't judge whether it would be worthwhile, sight unseen.

In other words, Loloklam, if you think Vantage's model is entirely superior, then tell Notch about it, as that cuts the finding cost. The more description you add, the more it cuts the assessment cost as well. I would suggest you be less rude to him if you do so, however, assuming you want him to actually listen to you. (Clearly I have no problem with you not listening to me. )
Although, the other problem is that Minecraft's development has already been entirely funded, assuming Notch knows what he's talking about. But he could change in time for the next project.

There also seems to be a misconception that you can't play minecraft at all without paying.

If you're feeling brave, and promise not to complain about the bugs, you can try the latest unstable development version.

This is the description of the pay version. I really can't take any charges of nefariousness seriously.

[Dabi]

His link is broken...Yes but it's only because it has a quotation at the end and some bits messed up before the " around the www. can remove it? I did it?
http://www.crystaldragon.com/index.php - Took 9 seconds
I know you can play minecraft, but you cant actually do much without paying. Not to mention this is very off-top for what this topic was originally meant for.

[Kogan Loloklam]

His link is broken...Yes but it's only because it has a quotation at the end and some bits messed up before the " around the www. can remove it? I did it?
http://www.crystaldragon.com/index.php - Took 9 seconds
I know you can play minecraft, but you cant actually do much without paying. Not to mention this is very off-top for what this topic was originally meant for.

http://www."http.com//www.crystaldragon.com/index.php%22
Fapped if I know how it turned into that from http://www.crystaldragon.com/index.php
Http.com for the win!
Seriously though, Vantage's crafting is significantly better than Minecraft. Minecraft's crafting reminds me of another free game, Stranded 2 ( http://www.stranded.unrealsoftware.de/ ). I'll grant minecraft's is better than that one though.

Something to point out.
I never said people didn't have the choice to take the risk, I'm just saying, I think it's better to spend that $15 on a finished game now instead of an incomplete game later.
As for this:

Economically, a 50% discount exactly corresponds to a 50% risk it will never be finished.

I have yet to find any evidence of that. I have found this though: Is it really on sale?

So, this is off topic, right? Not really. this guy is talking about getting "Toady's Permission" for integration. What, exactly, does that mean? I tend to think the worst of it. His revenue system isn't the greatest. it doesn't have to be vantages (actually, that'd be stupid for him) but it could easily be something else.

His revenue system is a classic, and sounds like a good deal if you get in on the "alpha release". But before you start advocating people buy it, take a serious look at the game. Consider what you would think if you bought it for that price off the shelf. Youtube videos and what I have experienced messing with it tell me that it isn't worth its price yet. For me, I'll wait until it costs $30 and evaluate it then. Everyone needs to determine if it is worth it for them as individuals. Jumping because it looks like a good deal isn't a wise choice. Dwarf Fortress is still better than it, and costs nothing. If we ever get a 3d Client for Dwarf Fortress, Minecraft is doomed. Core 85 & 86 ensure that.
If I cared enough, I'd hunt down one of the attempts to develop a 3d fortress active visualization tool. We already got slow advancement to Multiplayer in things like DFterm. All of these are free.

So, Should Toady give him what he would be probably asking for, which is probably propitiatory information? Nope. If all he needed was permission to allow importing the files into his client, he would probably have that already. After all, isn't that what the DFMA does? If he wants something that takes a Dwarf Fortress Map, he should have to develop it from scratch like everyone else.

[tfaal]

Consider what you would think if you bought it for that price off the shelf. Youtube videos and what I have experienced messing with it tell me that it isn't worth its price yet. For me, I'll wait until it costs $30 and evaluate it then. Everyone needs to determine if it is worth it for them as individuals.

Indeed. Like many people, after playing creative mode for some time and enjoying it, seeing the features that would be available to me if I purchased the full game, and seeing that new features were still being added to it, I bought it. I doubt you will find a single Minecraft player here who hasn't gone through that same thought process. All you're really telling us here is to exercise basic common sense in what we purchase, and I think it's safe to say that everyone in this thread, being intelligent people, do exactly that. Oh, and by the way, thanks for the link to Vantage. It looks quite interesting.

Back on the initial topic, I think the main issue we have to think about is whether tiles in dwarf fortress should be converted into 2 tile wide cubes, or 3 tile wide. I initially preferred the former, but the latter option is growing on me, particularly because it makes stairs possible. It does mess up ramps though. With a 2 tile setup, ramps can simply be a 2x2x1 block. However, floors are also improved with a 3 tile setup; they can occupy the top nine blocks of a 3x3x3, and still allow people to walk through. One more advantage is fall damage. A human can survive a one DF tile drop without damage, but two tiles will start to hurt, just as in Dwarf Fortress. I would take some screenshots to go with this, but Infdev is down while Notch is adding caverns to the game.

[Lmaoboat]

His link is broken...Yes but it's only because it has a quotation at the end and some bits messed up before the " around the www. can remove it? I did it?
http://www.crystaldragon.com/index.php - Took 9 seconds
I know you can play minecraft, but you cant actually do much without paying. Not to mention this is very off-top for what this topic was originally meant for.

http://www."http.com//www.crystaldragon.com/index.php%22
Fapped if I know how it turned into that from http://www.crystaldragon.com/index.php
Http.com for the win!
Seriously though, Vantage's crafting is significantly better than Minecraft. Minecraft's crafting reminds me of another free game, Stranded 2 ( http://www.stranded.unrealsoftware.de/ ). I'll grant minecraft's is better than that one though.

Something to point out.
I never said people didn't have the choice to take the risk, I'm just saying, I think it's better to spend that $15 on a finished game now instead of an incomplete game later.
As for this:

Economically, a 50% discount exactly corresponds to a 50% risk it will never be finished.

I have yet to find any evidence of that. I have found this though: Is it really on sale?

So, this is off topic, right? Not really. this guy is talking about getting "Toady's Permission" for integration. What, exactly, does that mean? I tend to think the worst of it. His revenue system isn't the greatest. it doesn't have to be vantages (actually, that'd be stupid for him) but it could easily be something else.

His revenue system is a classic, and sounds like a good deal if you get in on the "alpha release". But before you start advocating people buy it, take a serious look at the game. Consider what you would think if you bought it for that price off the shelf. Youtube videos and what I have experienced messing with it tell me that it isn't worth its price yet. For me, I'll wait until it costs $30 and evaluate it then. Everyone needs to determine if it is worth it for them as individuals. Jumping because it looks like a good deal isn't a wise choice. Dwarf Fortress is still better than it, and costs nothing. If we ever get a 3d Client for Dwarf Fortress, Minecraft is doomed. Core 85 & 86 ensure that.
If I cared enough, I'd hunt down one of the attempts to develop a 3d fortress active visualization tool. We already got slow advancement to Multiplayer in things like DFterm. All of these are free.

So, Should Toady give him what he would be probably asking for, which is probably propitiatory information? Nope. If all he needed was permission to allow importing the files into his client, he would probably have that already. After all, isn't that what the DFMA does? If he wants something that takes a Dwarf Fortress Map, he should have to develop it from scratch like everyone else.

He's sold over 10,000 preorders, so either they're all a bunch of dumb sheep, or maybe, just maybe, people think this game is worth buying.

[Jay]

I remember wurm, it was horrible for me. I spent $100 or so and a couple months later lost everything, so i quit and lost my investment which i didn't get back due to the "Fun" factor. I then learned he "told" everyone they can get their investment back in a new character - O Rly? wheres my email?

What is this referring to?  Wurmageddon '07?
We had huge amounts of reimbursement for that when we logged back in on the same character after the reset.
We were never told to make a new character.

Boohoo.  You lost your investment, but it's because you quit.  That's all there is to it.
A massive server failure is not Rolf's fault.

If it's not referring to Wurmageddon, disregard that.


For you who don't think Notch will finish Minecraft - it's his only source of income now.
He has just as much incentive to finish it as Toady does DF.  Do you honestly expect Toady to stop development of DF anytime soon?  No?  I didn't think so.
Beyond that, the only project he has ever not seen to completion is Wurm, because he and Rolf started arguing over how the game should develop.
The two are still friends now, but they both have their own projects.  Rolf has Wurm (albeit considerably worse off since Notch left), and Notch has Minecraft.

If it weren't for the fact that Wurm is an MMO and any method of exporting its map would be extremely hazardous for the PVP server's integrity ("LOL GRIEFER"), I would bet you'd see a Wurm map grabber crop up in Minecraft.

[Kreiger]

For those of you interested, I bought a copy but don't play it as much recently.  (work, outside stuff, DF)

I'll share my account info with you guys.  If you change the password on me, it'll only screw over everybody else because I can change it back to original very easily.  I'm trusting the community.

Username is Kreiger
Pass is fordwarfs

You want www.minecraft.net/indev for the non-buggy(relatively) indev creative mode (highly recommended)
and www.minecraft.net/infdev for the infinite map version with updated lighting and some other nice tweaks.  This version IS buggy and last i checked you had no inventory and couldn't craft but it highlights what he's working on more closely than indev.

You can send me a PM here with any questions.

Also, Notch is aware people do this. He would rather you all buy your own copy (understandably), but he's said himself he has no security to stop multiple people playing on a single account and several people have pointed out to him that friends have bought it after playing on a borrowed account.

last thing. If you save your game, save as file, not on the server.  It doesn't work.

[dragnar]

People's problem with paying for Minecraft appears to be that it isn't finished yet, that they are paying for an unfinished game. You aren't. Buying Minecraft now is simply pre-ordering it. Notch decided to let those who pre-ordered it try out features he's still working on as a bonus, yes, but that's not what you are paying for. You are paying for the full game when it is released, same as any other pre-order.

[bombcar]

Anyway, you can't export the entire DF world with tile-by-tile detail that you have in Fortress Mode because it hasn't been generated yet. Only a particular fortress has had all the layers generated, etc.

[Greiger]

True, but I'm thinking Notch is only thinking of exporting something along the lines of a single site, not the whole world(as awesome as that would be)

[Dabi]

For those of you interested, I bought a copy but don't play it as much recently.  (work, outside stuff, DF)

I'll share my account info with you guys.  If you change the password on me, it'll only screw over everybody else because I can change it back to original very easily.  I'm trusting the community.

Username is Kreiger
Pass is fordwarfs

You want www.minecraft.net/indev for the non-buggy(relatively) indev creative mode (highly recommended)
and www.minecraft.net/infdev for the infinite map version with updated lighting and some other nice tweaks.  This version IS buggy and last i checked you had no inventory and couldn't craft but it highlights what he's working on more closely than indev.

You can send me a PM here with any questions.

Also, Notch is aware people do this. He would rather you all buy your own copy (understandably), but he's said himself he has no security to stop multiple people playing on a single account and several people have pointed out to him that friends have bought it after playing on a borrowed account.

last thing. If you save your game, save as file, not on the server.  It doesn't work.

I'll be taking a look at this, thanks Kreiger.

Also, jaybud, I don't know if it was the "07" all I remember was nothing was working for me in terms of passwords or anything, so i gave up after that point when i found out everything was deleted. But thats not the thing at this time.

Also Lmaobot, I love Stranded 2...I play it alot when I'm bored and It's just...simply awesome.

[Krelos]

Everyone needs to determine if it is worth it for them as individuals. Jumping because it looks like a good deal isn't a wise choice.

This is very good advice.
Personally, I bought Minecraft after the first 5 hours playing it several months ago (when there were fewer features) and have never for a moment regretted it.
I would buy(preorder) DF for 10E as well, without batting an eye or a second thought. Though, not today, cause I'm almost broke.

[Capntastic]

Community investment in development of games they enjoy is a good alternative to supporting giant game dev companies like EA that everyone seeems to hate.  So don't forget that aspect.