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Author Topic: Suddenly, a third gender  (Read 17033 times)

Kagus

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2010, 04:06:57 pm »

I've been mistaken for being a woman several times throughout my life.  Sure it can be a bit annoying, but it makes for some fun stories (not that I'm saying it can't be serious, it's just that I tend to have an unusual way of dealing with things).

I lost count at 11.

Jreengus

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2010, 04:09:23 pm »

I've only been mistake for a girl once, when I had my hair in a ponytail, so I just gave up on that hairstyle.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2010, 04:12:53 pm »

I'd support the idea of a third gender option for those who are between genders (like the person in the article, or those born with both organs) but I don't think transexuals need another option.  They should just put down what they feel is their true gender.
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Vector

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2010, 04:37:55 pm »

Ok let me get this straight, some stupid people made some mistakes and thought you were a guy. From this you have concluded that the English language is invalid and everyone should ignore the basic rules of it?

If people mistake my pet for a bat does that mean that we shouldn't call the wooden stick you hit things with a bat? Because this is effectively the argument you are making here, that you were hurt/annoyed by people making a mistake and using one meaning of a word so the other meaning is invalid.

No.  I'm saying that being called by the incorrect pronoun sucks, and if both pronouns are incorrect, then we'd better make a third one.  Language changes.  It has changed, so that "he" is no longer really gender-neutral (if it ever really was in the first place).  If I said "Zounds" instead of "Shit," would I be correct?  Not really.  How about saying "I cannot abear it" rather than "I cannot bear it," or calling a woman handsome ("Why, hello there, handsome woman!") or saying "women glow" instead of "women sweat?"  Hell, how about archaic spellings?  We changed that crap for a reason, and now we've got a damned good reason to change the language again.

I also like the part where we call everyone "he," which implies that men are the main gender lying around and worth worrying about.  Would it be all right if we arbitrarily switched to she as the gender-neutral pronoun--because after all, it's just one little letter?  I'm certain you'd be okay about being the "weird" gender, right?  Because being male is standard, so we can use male pronouns whenever we don't know with no problems.  I am referring, of course, to the notions expressed in The Second Sex, by Simone de Beauvoir.

Your "bat" example is fallacious because context allows one to figure out that one is talking about an animal, rather than a wooden object.  The context of human gender does not inform one that one does not know whether someone is female or male, and is thus using he.  It informs the listener that they are to address the person in question as male and behave as though that individual were male.

Yes, writing is different.  We write "he" or "she" to denote an arbitrary person.  But this is a different matter.  This is about speech and forms of address to specific people, not arbitrary individuals.



Language as an edifice is sensible only so long as it is effective.  If the laws of physics changed, we would construct a new mathematics.  As the social structure changes, we construct new language.

That is how it goes, and no matter how much one may adore the purity of one structure over another, the times are changing and our literary systems must change along with them.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2010, 04:41:24 pm »

"He" is the gender-neutral and gender-nonspecific term in English

Etymology != meaning.  The meaning of words changes over time, as does their association with gender.  "He" isn't gender-neutral in British or American English, and I'd be surprised if you could find even a small community of English-speakers who use it that way.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2010, 04:43:16 pm »

I seem to be the only person on the entire forum who is comfortable with singular "they".

I guess it's because I grew up with it.
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Chutney

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2010, 04:45:32 pm »

I propose we refer to this third gender by "ke" and "kim" and "kude"

"I fought some kude last night"
"Do you think ke'll mind?"
"Ke really seems upset"
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Vector

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2010, 05:02:15 pm »

I seem to be the only person on the entire forum who is comfortable with singular "they".

I guess it's because I grew up with it.

The English program at my high school was... surprisingly rigorous.  "Singular they" sent the teachers into conniptions.  It wasn't one of the "firable offenses" (grammatical errors that would drop your grade a letter), but it made them really angry.  I imagine that other forumites have had similar experiences.


... I also used to refer to people as objects, though, so I suppose I'm rather sensitive to pronoun usages.

(I.e. "The person that Dilsey loved," and so on.  I also called babies/animals "it," because it made rather more sense.)
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Leafsnail

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2010, 05:13:26 pm »

Shakespeare used it.  I mean... it's not like it's a new thing.

Then again, one of the greatest speeches of all time by Winston Churchill ("We will fight on the beaches") was marked down by an exam-bot.

For repetition.
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ein

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2010, 05:17:41 pm »

I've always used singular they.
The one time I got in trouble for it, I managed to convince the teacher that it was, in fact, proper usage.
They seemed fine with it.

As for being mistaken for a girl, it doesn't really happen with me anymore because I have a fairly masculine body shape.

Vector

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2010, 05:19:10 pm »

Then again, one of the greatest speeches of all time by Winston Churchill ("We will fight on the beaches") was marked down by an exam-bot.

... Exam-bot?
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Realmfighter

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2010, 05:23:00 pm »

A robot that marks exams?
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Leafsnail

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2010, 05:24:07 pm »

It automatically marks grammar, spelling and a few other things.

I'm not sure if they actually implemented it in the end after it marked down several classic pieces of fiction.
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Neruz

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2010, 05:28:24 pm »

It automatically marks grammar, spelling and a few other things.

I'm not sure if they actually implemented it in the end after it marked down several classic pieces of fiction.

That would tell me it should be implemented immediately. Many classic pieces of fiction are grammatically terrible.

Vector

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2010, 05:29:16 pm »

It automatically marks grammar, spelling and a few other things.

I'm not sure if they actually implemented it in the end after it marked down several classic pieces of fiction.

Oh, weird.  We only have the plagiarism-checker thing around here, and everything else is done by hand.  I don't think anyone trusted anything electronic to understand grammar/spelling/word usage, given the wonderful job Microsoft Word does.


That would tell me it should be implemented immediately. Many classic pieces of fiction are grammatically terrible.

Hrmph.  Sometimes grammar must give way to poetics.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".
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