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Author Topic: Suddenly, a third gender  (Read 17036 times)

Aqizzar

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #135 on: March 18, 2010, 04:43:43 am »

While you're welcome to pursue that line of argument, it's laughable that you're dismissing cow's argument out of hand with phrases like "It's just the way the world works" when 1) that argument has been leveled against every progressive measure in history and 2) that's not the way the world works, not all of it anyway.

Footkerchief has become a Legendary Archivist!  Really, I'd like to thank you for the link, both for it's relevancy to the argument and the reintroduction of class.  Kudos.


I know 'you're taking it out of context' is a poor response Aqizzar, but dear lord man, you are. Everything i have said is in the context of responding to cow's point about discrimination and not taking things into account over which you as an individual have little or no control over, and is only relevant as such. Yes i know the process Banks go through to determine loans is far more complex than a mere gender analysis, but that is completely irrelevant as the only point that needs to be made is that gender is a valid statistic.

No one but cow is saying it's not, and I'm not even sure myself if he's saying that.  You keep jumping on that one issue as if it's important, especially now that we've got some real-world analysis to look at which says that no, banks are not supposed to use gender as a basis in making loans.
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Neruz

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #136 on: March 18, 2010, 04:46:19 am »

Yeah i think i just reached that 'tired of this' point i was talking about a few posts back. Nothing like a massive argument derailment over semantics from a brick wall to ruin my fun.

--EDIT--

Also i'm fairly sure that proving a specific example sort-of wrong and then declaring that you have proved the entire argument wrong is a strawman.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 04:49:54 am by Neruz »
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cowofdoom78963

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #137 on: March 18, 2010, 04:46:32 am »

Quote
It's not nice, it's not pretty, but the universe doesn't give a damn about your proud little posturing. And neither does the bank, because no matter how often you repeat your opinion that banks shouldn't discriminate, the reality is they can, do, and must.
That's exactly what I wanted to hear. You admit that this is in fact wrong. One day people might do something about it and fix these wrongs but it's good enough to get people to realize this today.

No i didn't. Please point out the part of my post where i said it was wrong, or stop blatantly lying like a little child caught in a corner.
You admitted that the banks just dont give a shit.
I guess that's not really "wrong" but it's close enough.
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Neruz

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #138 on: March 18, 2010, 04:47:13 am »

Quote
It's not nice, it's not pretty, but the universe doesn't give a damn about your proud little posturing. And neither does the bank, because no matter how often you repeat your opinion that banks shouldn't discriminate, the reality is they can, do, and must.
That's exactly what I wanted to hear. You admit that this is in fact wrong. One day people might do something about it and fix these wrongs but it's good enough to get people to realize this today.

No i didn't. Please point out the part of my post where i said it was wrong, or stop blatantly lying like a little child caught in a corner.
You admitted that the banks just dont give a shit.
I guess that's not really "wrong" but it's close enough.
I said the banks don't care about your posturing. And it's true, they don't.

Aqizzar

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #139 on: March 18, 2010, 04:51:43 am »

Yeah i think i just reached that 'tired of this' point i was talking about a few posts back. Nothing like a massive argument derailment over semantics from a brick wall to ruin my fun.

--EDIT--

Also i'm fairly sure that proving a specific example sort-of wrong and then declaring that you have proved the entire argument wrong is a strawman.

And I'm fairly sure that declaring victory and pulling out is a face-saving tactic that only works on the national scale.  Since I'm still not sure what this whole conflagration was even about, I'm not going to press the issue.
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #140 on: March 18, 2010, 04:52:57 am »

Well said. Shall we all adjourn? Or talk about the original topic or something?
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Neruz

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #141 on: March 18, 2010, 04:53:23 am »

Yeah i think i just reached that 'tired of this' point i was talking about a few posts back. Nothing like a massive argument derailment over semantics from a brick wall to ruin my fun.

--EDIT--

Also i'm fairly sure that proving a specific example sort-of wrong and then declaring that you have proved the entire argument wrong is a strawman.

And I'm fairly sure that declaring victory and pulling out is a face-saving tactic that only works on the national scale.  Since I'm still not sure what this whole conflagration was even about, I'm not going to press the issue.

You just engaged in a debate without knowing what the debate was actually about?...

cowofdoom78963

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #142 on: March 18, 2010, 04:55:58 am »

Quote
It's not nice, it's not pretty, but the universe doesn't give a damn about your proud little posturing. And neither does the bank, because no matter how often you repeat your opinion that banks shouldn't discriminate, the reality is they can, do, and must.
That's exactly what I wanted to hear. You admit that this is in fact wrong. One day people might do something about it and fix these wrongs but it's good enough to get people to realize this today.

No i didn't. Please point out the part of my post where i said it was wrong, or stop blatantly lying like a little child caught in a corner.
You admitted that the banks just dont give a shit.
I guess that's not really "wrong" but it's close enough.
I said the banks don't care about your posturing. And it's true, they don't.
This works just as well:

BEFORE:
Quote
Where it's possible to do so, sure. But the bank doesn't really have the time, manpower or money to do a comprehensive character analysis over several years each time you want a loan.

AFTER:
Quote
That's not what i meant, what i meant was the Bank doesn't care about what parts of your character you have control over. They don't give a wooden nickle that you can't control the fact that you're female. All they care about is the final product, not the process by which the product was created.
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Neruz

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #143 on: March 18, 2010, 04:57:01 am »

Sigh.

Yes, my specific bank example has been proven wrong. Lovely, want to get back to the discussion at hand or would you like to wave that strawman around for awhile longer? I'm happy to wait, but i'd like to know which one you're planning on doing.

cowofdoom78963

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #144 on: March 18, 2010, 05:10:47 am »

It's over now. Nothing left to say.

Goodnight.

Oh and by the way that was no strawman.
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Akroma

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #145 on: March 18, 2010, 05:13:31 am »

far more serious replies than I thought would come.

I thought the ouwha? factor would outweight that.



anyway, in my opinion, this is less a question of actual wings wangs, but a question of sexuality altogether.


the boxes you check on legal documents, where you either mark m or f never asked for your personal sexuality, else g and l would have joined them long ago. it was a clear question for your biologial gender, and lo and behold, there are 3, male female and herm.

if the australian government had decided to mark a little box with h, then the decision would be nothing out of the ordinary.


but instead, they now ask for "intersex", which clearly is not your biological gender, but your mental sexuality.

let alone the fact that suddenly transexuality is recognised as a gender of it's own, while regular homosexuals are still just something mental, is a very difficult distinction to make, this is not why this decision annoys me.


here in germany, no official document I've seen in the last 10 years ever asked me for my gender.
apart from my photo, neither my official ID, nor my driving license, nor my university ID, heck not even my library card or my card for DVD rental bear any indication of my gender.


and you know why ? because it does not matter at all.
beaurocracy in germany does not give a fuck about who and what you are, neither biologicaly, nor mentaly.

the only official places where you are asked to check a m/f on a document are hospitals, and you know well why it is necessary there.

you know, this is what they call "all equal in front of the law"


when the australian government was confronted with this issue, they should have simply abandoned checking your gender on official documents, because it is no information needed to pay your taxes or get a driving license or whatever.


yet instead, they just chose to put in a third box you can check, thinking "hurr, we are so clever and so political correct and tolerant"

bullshit.

prior to that, they only asked for bilogical gender.

now they ask for the state of your mind, which is a very personal and private question.


this is not a step forward, but a step backwards.

in a tolerant world, neither biological gender nor sexual orientation should play any roll.

and making your sexual orientation required information, which will then be printed on your drivers license, now that simply goes to far.



hey, including me there are plenty of homosexuals on this forum, right ?

remember when you publicaly came out, the news reached your school, and immediatly afterwards you always had eyes on your back ?

sure, officialy it's always "I don't care, let them think what they want", but in truth, nothing is more bugging than people you have known for years suddenly stare holes into your back.



now imagine your are stopped for speeding, a policeofficer checks your driving license, and then, maybe just for a small second, he has this funny surpised look in his eyes.


sure, "you don't care", but I still do not want anybody to look at me that way.
it's an entirely private matter, and has no place on my official documents, because I CHOSE who needs to know that and who doesn't



now imagine you are a transexual, disguised properly enough to pass as whatever gender you want to pass right now (that is to say, normal clothes, not that dragqueen outfit), the police asks you for your lisence and BAM, there it is, in black on white letters.


something like that takes away from you the right to be incognito when you want to be incognito.


sure, by law we are all the same.

then why print a yellow sta...excuse me your sexuality on your official documents ?

nobody should care, riiiight?



point in case:

recognise them as official gender: questionable, but fine if they incist

make that required info on your documents: bullshit. this is a private matter, and writing "intersex" on a driving license is pointless




Warning - while you were typing 18 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

ouwhaa
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Aqizzar

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #146 on: March 18, 2010, 05:14:11 am »

Neruz, I've got your back on this one.

Oh and by the way that was no strawman.

The very definition of unwarranted smugness.  Elegant in it's simplicity really.


Warning - while you were typing 18 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Astounding isn't it?
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And here is where my beef pops up like a looming awkward boner.
Please amplify your relaxed states.
Quote from: PTTG??
The ancients built these quote pyramids to forever store vast quantities of rage.

Neruz

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #147 on: March 18, 2010, 05:18:34 am »

Thanks Aqizzar, but this wouldn't be fun if i let other people do my arguing for me.

Oh and by the way that was no strawman.

It was indeed. You showed that a given example was not relevant to the arguement (well you didn't, but anyway) and then declared the argument itself incorrect because the example chosen was not relevant.

That is the very definition of a strawman. Logical fallacy too.

Forumsdwarf

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #148 on: March 18, 2010, 05:22:59 am »

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If you took your daughter to a deserted island, and everybody just assumed she was a boy (or something equally implausible), she would probably grow up and act like a male.
Until she sent her first text message ...
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Siquo

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Re: Suddenly, a third gender
« Reply #149 on: March 18, 2010, 07:13:55 am »

Back on topic: An Australian judge reverted the decision, (s)he has to choose a gender now.

Too bad, was fun while it lasted.
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This one thread is mine. MIIIIINE!!! And it will remain a happy, friendly, encouraging place, whether you lot like it or not. 
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