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[Rowanas]

Yay! Everyone ignored my second page post in which I put forward a system for magic that would always be interesting, but also useful, while still retaining the possibility of fun.

I've said this before, I'm sure, but I like the idea of wizards being random and unpredictable. You tell the wizard to do magic, give him a target and see what he comes up with. The wizard then lets loose mojo from one or two spheres with a focus on whatever you've pointed it at. If it's hostile, expect strangeness and rents in the fabric of space-time, if it's friendly, you're probably looking at sphere-based helping out, otherwise random enchantments for objects and stuff.

That way you know your wizards aren't going to insta-gib you by accident (unless you tell them to open up on a hostile inside your fortress walls), while you never actually know what exactly he's going to do. You can't reliably manufacture magical doors, but you know that they're useful enough not to be given the nobles' quarters the moment they appear on the edge of your map.

In addition to immigrant wizards, I think strange-mood-style "Urist Mchauler has discovered latent magical powers" would be quite fun. He'll go and collect a bunch of items and at the end of it, instead of ending up with an artifact, you'll get a new skill: Magic. If you don't bring him the stuff he needs, expect something a little bit different from your standard sulk, like perhaps a magical explosion.

The magic skill would obviously e trained by giving him magic to do and would make his magic stronger which may or may not always be desirable.

Now, I'm going to go ahead and put in a buch of lines with nothing in them just to pad out my post so that it can still be seen after Kohaku or praguepride have posted another doctorate on how they think the magic system should work.



doo de doo..










dum de dum...







ok, I think that's enough.

[Nivim]

 The conversation went on from there, although I'm sure that contributed to allowing others to say that "other people think -----". Also, if your post is at the top of the page, what will keep it from being seen? You can probably remove the whitespace.

[BlazingDav]

Of course it doesn't satisfy! It's "Let magic be magic!" not "Let magic be magic, but not for us."
 At a glance, you don't know the meaning of the word "arbitrary", "calibrate", and "varied"... After reading; could you rephrase that without buzz words? Or just reword what you were trying to say in general?

Arbitrary, a man made scale, something more subjective than objective
Calibrate, to 'adjust' or align a system to a predetermined scale accounting for error
Varied, ummm variety?, abundance of unique elements

Yep I think I do know their meanings, but I acknowledge I'm not the best of writers, probably haven't even put the definitions across properly =/

Lets see...

Let magic be magic - Should definetly feel like this in game, but if you are someone who sniffs around and mods it should make sense, should definetly be able to make sense to Toady who programs it, not to say its predictable, but say 'Ah so the volcano suddenly erupted up from the ground because a dwarf lost his holy sock in the magma pipe'. Though for the sake of rp also, it should be possible to have characters with an incredible understanding of magic that manipulate it to their will -otherwise where will we get good adversaries =P-

Where is the mana? - I was saying that mana ought to exist in all things, just in different quantities just like you get specific heat capacity in relation to real world temperature of masses.

How many spells can a dwarf cast if a dwarf could cast spell? - Should be a question of mental fortitude or till the dwarf just runs out of mana, consumable materials with a high mana concentration or replenish mental fortitude would be plausible either way.

Where does the energy go? - Depending on how magic is created per world gen (Magic made anew with each world is the popular one) some magic systems created might be dependant on strategic making of spells beforehand while others on skillful casting in the blink of an eye, both would have very different 'mana' systems, the first a rate calculated with which you can create spell x and the second observing how much the wizard has at one time and how much a spell uses of it. Also I'd be curious if a simple max of 100 is possible  where simply the spells require less effort to avoid going into the 1000s of mp or something. Also I won't say the mp system is the best, but if magic is used such that a player on has so much energy available in an immeadiate instance to work with mp and thats all they got to work with, it does make sense. Not even going to suggest levelling other than the like of stats and skill we have now and in future

What does this shiny thing do? - Effectively if you could have a physical resource simply oozing in magical energy working out how it ought to be applied can simply be done by thinking what would happen in a type of dwarf were to get their mits on it, this can be any proffession. Admittedly I didn't think about wizard towers so much in the end, but they can also be considered a group.

Also I was suggesting that users would be experimenting, as in they don't have a clue what they are doing, so if accidents didn't happen I'd honestly be surprised, meaning that potentially the chances of someone becoming sufficiently experienced to not have accidents is lower and there is nothing to stop them experimenting for even crazier stuff and they end up making a deadly blade of doom that possesses them and wipes the entire fort out.

Also Rowanas I did read your post but couldnt think of anything to say =P Though the general idea of pushing your wizards to go further with their magic leading to greater bad and good things is a reasonable thing, though maybe if they went off and tried doing it somewhere else like going on holiday for a year then they come back having tested the spell they came up with, that was if it blew a whole in a good chunk of the region then only they died (a reasonable precaution) and if they return it worked (or did it, this comment in no way refers to demon possession). Then with this new spell at hand they might use it at your discretion after learning what the spell does and therefore if it goes wrong what might result.

[!!Zombie Carp!!]

My brain melted trying to reread the thread. 

KISS
Keep It Simple, Silly.

I would rather magic be used in a much more passive role. Such as magically enabled dwarves in the military being able to use one-shot combat heals (obviously lost limbs remain lost) when badly wounded (or instead knock their opponent away if a marksdwarf). Or being able to use a ridiculous amount of mana as a substitute for a rock ('crystal rock', non-economic) or to fuel forges, dwarves' skills allowing.

Given the nature of dwarves, it may be interesting to tie it in with mechanics more than other skills (golems; mechanics needs to be involved, it's the dwarven way), using magic as batteries, or to conduit mechanical power very long distances.

It could even be tied into healthcare a little. Mechanical replacement limbs, anyone?

[Kilo24]

KISS
Keep It Simple, Silly.

When Dwarf Fortress is brought within 2.4 meters of that acronym, both spontaneously combust.

I would rather magic be used in a much more passive role. Such as magically enabled dwarves in the military being able to use one-shot combat heals (obviously lost limbs remain lost) when badly wounded (or instead knock their opponent away if a marksdwarf). Or being able to use a ridiculous amount of mana as a substitute for a rock ('crystal rock', non-economic) or to fuel forges, dwarves' skills allowing.

I disagree strongly with this.  Magic can be a hell of a lot more complex in DF than in tabletop games because it will never lose track of the variables, and also more complex than more balanced games because the player isn't expected to completely understand it. 
It could be good game design in another game, but not in Dwarf Fortress, where magic will be a whole system in and of itself.

Given the nature of dwarves, it may be interesting to tie it in with mechanics more than other skills (golems; mechanics needs to be involved, it's the dwarven way), using magic as batteries, or to conduit mechanical power very long distances.

It could even be tied into healthcare a little. Mechanical replacement limbs, anyone?

Either would be interesting.  I'd caution that some of that may be tied to setting-specific flavor over a fundamental concept of dwarfiness, so that it may change between cultures/magic systems when a new setting is generated.

[nenjin]

Going through all this in my own magic thread made me realize that, without a basic framework from Toady, the answer will always be "magic can be anything/do anything" until he addresses the issue directly.   

Which makes it really hard to do anything but list end results, of which I'm sure Toady has a 192 mg Word doc containing exactly that. Just look at the power goals. That's essentially what we lay out with these threads.

I tried cooking up the beginnings of such a system, but my brain melted pretty soon afterward.

Love the "Hubris-O-Meter" though. The more you screw around, the larger and more pervasive the repercussions get. Although that assumes that the universe "cares" what you do with magic, or that it relates to the god's spheres in some way.

In a perfect system, DF's procedural magic would be able to create several core systems on the fly. Whether a world uses school-based systems, divinely-based magic, or incorporates some parts of the color wheel, if all that could be achieved procedurally rather than having to be hard-coded, we would potentially get the best of both worlds.

The kicker is: where do we start and what inputs do we start with? That's where my ability to conceptualize a procedural system falls apart. I can't think broadly enough and then work towards specificity, when we're dealing with a system that can potentially be everything.

Anyways, one thing I would really appreciate in DF's magic system is the ability to rename/define things in our own way. Consider that we can give dwarves profession titles, name their squads, ect..... I would really like to be able to name effects that are generated. Even if the system doesn't support "schools", the player can give themselves the illusion that it does by naming their own effects/naming elements of the magic system and/or magic users so that it fits whatever model of magic they have in mind.

[Nivim]

 The threads' finally going smoothly, just a few things this time.

Spoiler: Definitions for your curiosity. (click to show/hide)

Arbitrary, a man made scale, something more subjective than objective
Calibrate, to 'adjust' or align a system to a predetermined scale accounting for error
Varied, ummm variety?, abundance of unique elements

Arbitrary -

• Depending on individual discretion and not fixed by law.
• a: Not restrained or limited in the exercise of power.
  b: Marked by or resulting from the unrestrained and often tyrannical exercise of power.
• a: Based on or determined by individual preference or convenience rather than by necessity or the intrinsic nature of something.
  b: Existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as a capricious and unreasonable act of will.

It looks like the meaning I always see used (and use myself) isn't here. That meaning is more 'some system that could be changed into anything else or done without completely', as in something that's not only useless, but drains time and resources by trying to use it. Many parts of government and common rules are arbitrary.
 The other two definitions look fine...I guess it was just following wording. Like how you followed "varied and interesting" with something that wasn't varied...

Spoiler: Characters very good at magic. (click to show/hide)

{snippity}...it should be possible to have characters with an incredible understanding of magic that manipulate it to their will -otherwise where will we get good adversaries =P-...

Need to assume the player will get whatever it is almost as often as the opponent, so skewing difficultly like implied won't work like it does for other games. Any powerful magic characters will still need limitations; not hard ones like "magic points", "fortitude", or a "magic resource".

But more like "no matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style", "you may make fire dance and lightning crack, but what will it cost you in life?". Again, I have no idea what equations or math are required, but limits may be placed indirectly and smoothly.

Spoiler: Specific heat (click to show/hide)

Where is the mana? - I was saying that mana ought to exist in all things, just in different quantities just like you get specific heat capacity in relation to real world temperature of masses.

What you describe is quite unlike specific heat. Specific heat is a property of matter; a ratio of kJ to °C or °K. You talk about energy being stored in all matter; the proper of that matter would be it's ability to store magical energy...which is kinda a given. Although, unless you plan on destroying the object, there will be no inherent energy stored.

KISS
Keep It Simple, Silly.

When Dwarf Fortress is brought within 2.4 meters of that acronym, both spontaneously combust.

+1. And to the other things in that post. Just that DF will not have a magic system in itself; it will have a magic system generator that weaves it into everything else.
Predit: And ‼DF‼ is even better.

Spoiler: On wizard towers; no quotes. (click to show/hide)

 I always imagined a wizard's tower as a place where a wizard lived, and thus built it (or jerry rigged it) to its purpose. Having nothing fancy by nature, but that the wizard would go out and collect fancy things. Then of course mess with them because they mean power and entertainment (although I'm sure the wizard has his conscious[make-believe] reason's too).

Spoiler: Goodbye, and then he can't randown us! (click to show/hide)

 Even if it encourages the silly 'wizard noble' idea, I think that since we will have the 'sending off site' ability when magic gets worked on, it would be a good idea to send the main magic user off with a very few apprentices, guards, and support crew somewhere very far away. I guess if their personalities or conditions warranted it, this group could be taken control of by the wizard and splinter off from your fort. But the safety gained would be quite valuable.

The kicker is: where do we start and what inputs do we start with? That's where my ability to conceptualize a procedural system falls apart. I can't think broadly enough and then work towards specificity, when we're dealing with a system that can potentially be everything.

Yes! This is what we want to get to!
 Now, instead of trying to think of everything broadly, then going into details, we want to do the reverse. The program that might appear in 3-4+ years will be made to do that; taking general rules and making the details. We, however, will want to find details we want to see then figure out the general rules which can create those details.
 So it would be great if everyone could think of games, book series, even TV shows, in which they saw something that they want DF's magic to be able to generate. Then when they post it here we dissect said media, then group the bloody organs in the respective steel examination plates.

Spoiler: Deciding just what your generated magic is. (click to show/hide)

Anyways, one thing I would really appreciate in DF's magic system is the ability to rename/define things in our own way. Consider that we can give dwarves profession titles, name their squads, ect..... I would really like to be able to name effects that are generated. Even if the system doesn't support "schools", the player can give themselves the illusion that it does by naming their own effects/naming elements of the magic system and/or magic users so that it fits whatever model of magic they have in mind.

I think this is great, and I haven't seen it posted anywhere (although I've only read three of these threads). Instead of having the madlibs generator name your magic, you can put names to it yourself. Although I think for things like world-wide schools you would have to get a kind a following for it, and let it spread slowly. And the really fun part would be in a dynamic magic system where people's beliefs effect the whole of magic. Then those names and groups you created would actually turn into groups! Before mutating into something else that is...

[Dr. Melon]

I kind of like the highly-unstable nature of Discworld magic - if you attempt something you haven't steeled yourself for and trained for, you blow your brains out of your ears. Or tear a hole into another, horrific dimension. Or become quite a painful shape for a few seconds, before folding up and going who-knows-where.

The possibilities for fun there are endless.

When applying this sort of thing to DF, I'd want to see apprentice magic users cause magical accidents - as a way of introducing risk/reward into the magic-using process. It's all very well setting up fireball-throwing towers, but when the spell can go wrong and cause mutant squid rain then I think that is more fun.

Not to mention, in areas where it has been overused, the lasting magical fallout means a very short lifespan for anything desiring to remain the same shape.

[BlazingDav]

I figured my definition fitted into that 1 of arbitrary nicely anyway =P

I figured we'd been pointing out at this procedural magic business the whole time like nenjin said and it appeared in the dwarven wizards if you ask me (or do I just read differently?) either way it is the system I favour and I have sort of thought about it before and worked on a written system as well, think its reasonable though I imagine most would disagree with alot of details and I know now that there are alot of details in it I should iron out considering recent discussion on mana and such.

I don't doubt we could cook up a magic system procedurally producing magic systems that can easily be distinguished from one another, the main problem is wanting to replicate magic systems that depend on physical structures.

For example I'd like to see multiple magic systems exist simultaneously in the same world, if a physical (or geological) structure triggers the creation of a magic system then it'd fix its existence because the structure would inevitably have to appear (according to probability) meaning it could be a stereotypical magic system found in DF which wouldnt be ideal by everyone's opinions I imagine. The nodes mentioned earlier being a good example. Also ones requiring buildings being built would be very hard to do with hardcoding without simply giving the player building blocks to work with and make them itself and even then small ones wouldn't be allowed, while 'magic patches' are plausible where Toady creates new hard coded buildings as they come along can't say they are fair on him to create more work when he has already made a functional magic system that trumps over others, though you could just have a set off magic buildings where their purposes are procedurally generated with the magic system using them.

[praguepride]

I've been thinking of the "procedurally generated magic" and I think the spheres is the way things will go.

By combining spheres you could get all sorts of fun and Fun.

Air + Fire = Fireballs, but that reminds me of a Order of the Stick comment where what was supposed to be a fireball with a range of 200ft and a radius of 10ft had a range of 10ft and a radius of 200ft (blew up the building they were located in).

So how those spheres combine and interact would be the "random crazy Fun" that I'm proposing, but the fact that a good player should be able to predict the spheres in use should allow you people to micromanage things or get your boring "magic is industry" stuff.

So here's a random thought (or perhaps derived from some other text bomb that I didn't read) that a wizard gets X spheres of knowledge. We'll say 2.

Air & Fire for example purposes. He can do neat things like help power magma forges (Sphere of Fire and/or Metal), he can clear out Maisma (Sphere of Air) with gusts of cool breezes, perhaps even be useful against a seige by throwing fireballs (Fire & Air) or just setting units on fire (Fire) or gusting enemies over cliffs (Air).

However, you want him to do something outside of his sphere. Say, build a bridge. This would be spheres of (Stone, Construction, Wood etc.) but definitely not Air or Fire. So he goes about trying to create a bridge and possibly creates a bridge of Fire (it's passable by fireimmune, everything else bursts into flames because of the heat) or he builds a bridge of air (invisible bridge that sometimes works, but only for very light loads) or he explodes the cliff and hopes that the resulting collapse closes the chasm needed for crossing.

If that "chasm" is in the middle of your fort, any of those could quickly lead to Fun! Those of us looking for mystical magical get it by pushing wizards outside of their comfort zone, those of you looking for boring predictable magic keep it by encouraging wizards to "stay" in their comfort zone (i.e. spheres of knowledge).

I don't think we should ever have set spells, but common known magical effects would be fine (a wizard in the sphere of fire can always set something on fire, a wizard with sphere of air can always create a breeze etc.). Now, you might call those spells, and I'm fine with spells as an abstract concept, I just don't want to see a wizard carrying around a grimore that says "Gust of Wind - 5MP' in it.

[Nivim]

 I'd still like people to cite other magic systems they would like to see parts of, instead of continuing to iron out the point of this thread. You burn clothing if you leave the iron on; get to the next shirt.

 I haven't really dissected these; just described what's in them for dissection. When reading, try not to think of any types of energy, stamina, or strength as simple, numerical values.

Spoiler: Magic traits: Heralds of Valdemar series, by Mercedes Lackey (click to show/hide)

 This universe has magic and psychic abilities, both of which require a person has the (latent) abilities at birth. Most of the population has latent abilities, but of that small total population only 1/150 have any active, and they are often small. Those with abilities are collected or persecuted as one would expect, depending on country and culture. Latent abilities can be unlocked through many equally rare means; the Herald's equine spirit mounts do it slowly, getting blasted with gate energy can open up all powers at once (ending in death without some incredible help), and of course emotional trauma can do the trick. There are rather specific, basic teachings on using any of these abilities. They include; learning how to find your Ground and Center (which your teacher will be merciless about), using your Ground to build your shields on (be they empathic shields or kinetic mage shields), using your Center to channel energies, and knowing the dangers. There are a whole load more well thought-out details in this group, but it's been more than a year since I read through all 15+ books.
 Those with psychic abilities use only their personal energy and strength for; telekinesis (what a heavy brick), telepathy (recieving and sending are separate, receiving needs to learn to close their mind before they go insane), empathy (goes insane from other emotions much faster than thoughts), fetching (teleporting objects to you, distance does not matter compared to size), firestarting, and more I can't remember.
 Mages get to use their personal energy directly, or use their personal energy to control node/magic energy (look above for the part on how node-energy works), which they see with mage-sight. Mages are more dangerous to themselves and others when untrained more than even firestarters, since they can not only start fires, but can accidentally summon any number of nasties (or goodies under bad circumstances) when "successful". If they aren't successful they can fry themselves and everything nearby with the node energy, as any of the inherently wild/living stuff, left uncontrolled, will turn into thermal energy. Working with large amounts of node energy require shields set up beforehand, a partner (unless you're legendary, like Vanyel), and being rested, awake, and cautious. After such a working, the mage collapses from exhaustion often and requires a good meal and rest all the time.
 Healers are a type of mage that does not use or see node energy, but can see living energy clearly. They can see disease and harm in others, and can help the body do what it would do normally. Healing takes about 1/2-1/6th time with a Healer working, and they can set bones perfectly (being able to see it). The danger of being a Healer is meeting up with a very stubborn disease/poison/infection while in trance, and drawn into fighting said illness until they expend all their energy and die. Healers (even experienced ones) always work with partners on stuff like that.
 This world also contains some very good enchanted objects designs, such as a sword someone put their soul in, a cursed coin of luck, and large things like the Heartstones(entire nodes bound to a column of rock) and the northern forest.

Spoiler: Magic traits: Elemental Masters Series, by Mercedes Lackey (click to show/hide)

 This universe makes magic take work just like in the Heralds of Valdemar universe, but is based on our universe; at different points in history. As a side note, it explained the great Chicago fire with the Elementals of one Master of Fire all being released at once from his death. English/Elemental magic requires invoking elementals to do any serious magic (only being able to do subtle things otherwise.)

Spoiler: Magic traits: Imager Chronicals, by Leland Modesitt (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Magic traits: Waldo & Magic Inc., by Heinlein (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Dragaeran Series, by Steven Brust (click to show/hide)

I recommend any book readers out there try these; they are some of the best I know.

Spoiler: Sphere list, for reference, might be incomplete, also really long (click to show/hide)

AGRICULTURE
ANIMALS
ART
BALANCE
BEAUTY
BIRTH
BLIGHT
BOUNDARIES
CAVERNS
CHAOS
CHARITY
CHILDREN
COASTS
CONSOLATION
COURAGE
CRAFTS
CREATION
DANCE
DARKNESS
DAWN
DAY
DEATH
DEFORMITY
DEPRAVITY
DISCIPLINE
DISEASE
DREAMS
DUSK
DUTY
EARTH
FAMILY
FAME
FATE
FERTILITY
FESTIVALS
FIRE
FISH
FISHING
FOOD
FORGIVENESS
FORTRESSES
FREEDOM
GAMBLING
GAMES
GENEROSITY
HAPPINESS
HEALING
HOSPITALITY
HUNTING
INSPIRATION
JEALOUSY
JEWELS
JUSTICE
LABOR
LAKES
LAWS
LIES
LIGHT
LIGHTNING
LONGEVITY
LOVE
LOYALTY
LUCK
LUST
MARRIAGE
MERCY
METALS
MINERALS
MISERY
MIST
MOON
MOUNTAINS
MUCK
MURDER
MUSIC
NATURE
NIGHT
NIGHTMARES
OATHS
OCEANS
ORDER
PAINTING
PEACE
PERSUASION
PLANTS
POETRY
PREGNANCY
RAIN
RAINBOWS
REBIRTH
REVELRY
REVENGE
RIVERS
RULERSHIP
RUMOR
SACRIFICE
SALT
SCHOLARSHIP
SEASONS
SILENCE
SKY
SONG
SPEECH
STARS
STORMS
STRENGTH
SUICIDE
SUN
THEFT
THRALLDOM
THUNDER
TORTURE
TRADE
TRAVELERS
TREACHERY
TREES
TRICKERY
TRUTH
TWILIGHT
VALOR
VICTORY
VOLCANOS[sic]
WAR
WATER
WEALTH
WEATHER
WIND
WISDOM
WRITING
YOUTH

There doesn't appear to be an air sphere right now... Perhaps we could start suggesting a list of spheres to be added? These are the ones currently used for gods, cultures, and megabeast, if you're wondering. I'm amazed there is the sphere of MUCK but not of SEDIMENT... or INTRIGUE or GALVANISM. Many seem to be missing.

Spoiler: Restate request for BlazingDav (click to show/hide)

I don't doubt we could cook up a magic system procedurally producing magic systems that can easily be distinguished from one another, the main problem is wanting to replicate magic systems that depend on physical structures.

Your run-on sentence is mangled, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding what you meant with it. Such as "distinguished from one another", and "physical structures" in relation to the generator replicating other magic systems. Your next paragraph makes things even more confusing. Could you try checking for misplaced modifiers in your grammar? Or just generally making smaller, complete sentences?

[praguepride]

If you want alternative magic systems, how about the Golem/Gargoyle series or whatever. I forget what it's technically called...Asmodeus trilogy?

Anyway, all magic is done via summoning demons and binding them to do your will. The books didn't have elves and dwarves, it was supposed to be "what if it was modern day, but with magic". Anyway, humans can't cast spells, no fireballs, no lightning bolts etc. What they'd do instead is bind a demon of fire and/or lightning to perform services for them. The demon performs said # of services and gets to go home again.

So you'd summon a demon of fire and tell him to throw a fireball. Now the demons have all sorts of magical spells & effects, both known (i.e. a spell called Tumbling Inferno that does a specific, known thing) and unknown/innate (i.e. the demon can just turn invisible or just shoots lightning out).

I thought that was a pretty nifty "alterna-look" at magic, i.e. it's all about enslaving magical races to do magic for you.

[Kilo24]

I'd still like people to cite other magic systems they would like to see parts of, instead of continuing to iron out the point of this thread. You burn clothing if you leave the iron on; get to the next shirt.

Heh.  Well, for me, the gold standard of magic systems is the tabletop game World Tree.  It's got a nouns/verbs system like Ars Magica, meaning that each spell is phrased in terms of what it does (one or more verbs, like creating, destroying, sustaining, or changing) to what type of materials (one or more nouns, like magic, flesh, fire, time, or water.)  Other systems have similar notions as far as that goes, but World Tree adds a bit more flavor to each one, partially through connecting them each with a god whose personality influences the way magic is dealt with and also through giving each material its own quirks.  For example, metal and stone (the noun Durodor) is really hard to affect with magic, which means that Durodor spells are much harder to cast and learn than the comparative spells in other nouns, and that, unlike other nouns, any spell that affects an object made partially of stone or metal must have Durodor as a noun (usually making it really complex and hard to cast.)  Or that it's easier to make air spells area-of-effect than other spells.  Or that the god controlling location/space magic (Locador) loves to torture and impale things, so a lot of Locador spells designed around perforating people are relatively less complex. Those interesting twists help keep each noun/verb from collapsing into the complex generic system (something Dwarf Fortress should be very worried about in any of its complex systems.)

There are a bunch of different ways to cast spells in it, but all of them follow a few basic notions.  Each spell has a power and a complexity; complexity strongly affects how effective the spell is but so does power.  You can do a lot of different spells with the system; the main thing is that a lot of effects (like the spell "Destroy the World" at complexity 1000, when a truly great wizard might be able to cast spells at around complexity 100) are prohibitively complex.  The different ways of casting spells all have their own balancing factors to them which work pretty well.  The system incorporates the ability to do such things as casting spells for free and casting a ton of permanent spells on your character without any DM intervention, but it does it in ways that are actually balanced and conditionally useful (the former has a high failure chance, the latter has power set at 5 so almost anyone can just resist the spell and it won't be too effective in general, since a large amount of effects are based on a fraction of the spell's power.)  And if you're using spontaneous magic, you try to cast any spell at any time you want or just make up a spell on the spot (though even moderately complex spells are really difficult to do and tend to fail frequently, but power tends to be high).

The system uses a quantized mana system, where spells use a specific amount of mana (cley) based on what method you're casting them with (and nothing else.)  The most commonly cast spells use just one cley.

Would DF be able to do something like this?  I doubt it.  It'd be hell to describe exactly what you're trying to do with spontaneous magic to a computer, for one. And a lot of the systems are only balanced because of one specific facet in the rules, and even a game designer carefully examining the system could miss that.  With a procedural generator examining it... I doubt it'd be able to correct a lot of the abuses.    There's also the fact that magic's heavily intertwined with the setting, and tearing it from the setting is going to rip a lot of the meaning (and thus the quality) from it.  But being able to do generate a system like it would make me very happy.

Hmm... I'd like to wax poetic about other magic systems, but I really can't think of anything that compares to World Tree.  D&D's Vancian spellcasting should be shot in the head, D&D 4e's system isn't anything I'd wish on any setting that doesn't focus entirely on cinematic combat (though it is well-balanced), Bethesda's games at least have something vaguely worthy of being called a "magic system" but they're poorly balanced and/or permit little creativity, Shadowrun's is odd and flavorful, but still not too impressive IMO.  There's a digital and tabletop game I'm working on in which magic is fueled by defoliating terrain (and fueled by damaging other life forms as well, but the main one is killing plants), but it's still not so much as a fully featured system as much as one used to make gameplay interesting (meaning it would be pretty bad except that the competition is much worse.)

[darkflagrance]

The rough way of dividing it up would be [SOURCES:*:*:*...] [STRENGTHS:*:*:*...] [EFFECTS:*:*:*...] [TARGETS:*:*:*...] and possibly [DURATION:*]. You're talking about gameplay mechanics for a procedural game in which mechanics can change from game-to-game, with modding or world parameters. Although nothing is set in stone, and nothing ever is; we can gather from devlogs, forum posts, and DF talks what direction the game will go in, and what mechanics are being used as bases.
 We know the current version's biome system of Evil-Neutral-Good (for undead, unicorns, ect.) will be replaced by the Sphere system that gods use.

I think we should try to figure out how a programmed system can produced a procedural system of magic.

Therefore, when we examine different magical systems that are found in fiction, we should not just figure out what elements make them interesting, but how those elements can be boiled down into mechanics.

For example, a system that uses sphere interaction only requires the elements mentioned in the post I quoted:

[AGENT]: the person, creature, or entity invoking the spell or effect
[SOURCE]: the source of magical energy required to make the spell or effect
[STRENGTH/EFFECT/DURATION/TARGET]: These can be similarly designated in the code.

The demon system would work differently I imagine. There would be agents that change the mechanics of the above system.

[Andeerz]

If you want alternative magic systems, how about the Golem/Gargoyle series or whatever. I forget what it's technically called...Asmodeus trilogy?

Anyway, all magic is done via summoning demons and binding them to do your will. The books didn't have elves and dwarves, it was supposed to be "what if it was modern day, but with magic". Anyway, humans can't cast spells, no fireballs, no lightning bolts etc. What they'd do instead is bind a demon of fire and/or lightning to perform services for them. The demon performs said # of services and gets to go home again.

So you'd summon a demon of fire and tell him to throw a fireball. Now the demons have all sorts of magical spells & effects, both known (i.e. a spell called Tumbling Inferno that does a specific, known thing) and unknown/innate (i.e. the demon can just turn invisible or just shoots lightning out).

I thought that was a pretty nifty "alterna-look" at magic, i.e. it's all about enslaving magical races to do magic for you.

That's pretty much how some magic was sort of thought of historically.  Here's a previous post of mine from another thread!  Maybe it's more relevant now! 

Hay peeps!  If anyone has time and wants to read up on sort of what old school medieval ideas of magic were like, pick up a copy of "Forbidden Rites: A Necromancer's Manual of the Fifteenth Century".  It's pretty sweet.  From a demonology class I took back in college, it seems that a good deal of "magic" in eastern and western Europe revolved around astral magic, demonic magic, and alchemy.  I really wish I was still in that class because it really was a great synopsis on the history of religion, magic, and science...

Well, from what I remember about the history of magic, a good deal of astral magic came from the middle east tracing as far back as Sumeria.  This magic had to do with planetary and stellar alignments influencing the goings-on on earth and dictating the ideal time for performing rituals to achieve whatever ends.  The rituals could involve making sacrifices (burning incense, offering food, maybe killing an animal) or inscribing symbols and the like.

Demonic magic in medieval Europe dealt with summoning demons or other spirits to do your bidding (or being tricked to do theirs).  This stuff ties in with some of the astral magic.  Typical demonic summoning rituals involved inscribing a magic circle around the summoner to protect them or around the area where the demon is summoned to keep them in check.  These circles involve the inscribing of magical runes, names of angels or other spirits, and/or words of inherent power.  Tools were implemented such as books (like the bible or the necromancer's book) swords, shields, or burnt offerings to get things going.  Making a golem relates to this as well.  One golem-making ritual I learned about involved sculpting a humanoid figure out of clay and inserting a piece of parchment with a special symbol into the mouth of the figure that would then cause it to come to life.  There's an interesting interpretation of this ritual in Jan Švankmajer's Faust.  Which reminds me... read Dr. Faustus!  It's pretty much all of this crap in a nut-shell!       

Alchemy and other aspects I don't remember as much about.  But, yeah, it's neat stuff!  If magic gets implemented in DF, I hope Toady takes a look at historical interpretations of magic.  I find it much more interesting than the ostentatious stuff currently found in most fantasy video games...