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[mutant mell]

I think it would be interesting if when something epic in the game happens, such as a dwarf dying while holding off 20 goblins to buy time for the rest of the military to get ready, then that moment should be immortalized by making one of the items involved in the incident an artifact.  It would be interesting for an adventurer to go out and kill a dragon, and have that event forever remembered by his artifact sword "Drag Slayer."

[Kagus]

No, that would be the name of a sword use in the massacre of a number of transvestites.

But I see your point.  Yes, weapons should earn some of the legendary status of a particularly heroic (or devilish) individual, and should be given special status of some sort.

[Cosmonot]

I think this would be better as a way of getting magic items. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a weapon to suddenly become a perfect work of craftsmanship because you did something epic with it, but it would be cool if your legendary actions somehow attract magic to your equipment, so a cleaver that is used to butcher a thousand kittens could attract some kind of kitten-hating item-possessing demon.

[gurra_geban]

a kitten butcherer really should be possessed by demons come late-game!

[Puzzlemaker]

I like this idea.

[mutant mell]

quote:Originally posted by Cosmonot:
<STRONG>I think this would be better as a way of getting magic items. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a weapon to suddenly become a perfect work of craftsmanship because you did something epic with it, but it would be cool if your legendary actions somehow attract magic to your equipment, so a cleaver that is used to butcher a thousand kittens could attract some kind of kitten-hating item-possessing demon.</STRONG>

Yeah, but we currently don't have magic, so making it an artifact is the only way to really represent this.  Once magic comes in, there will be plenty of ways to make it magical but not masterwork quality.

[ February 29, 2008: Message edited by: mutant mell ]

[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by mutant mell:
<STRONG>

Yeah, but we currently don't have magic, so making it an artifact is the only way to really represent this.  Once magic comes in, there will be plenty of ways to make it magical but not masterwork quality.</STRONG>

The idea of "magical but not masterwork quality" bugs me.  It's un-dwarven.  Crafted things are magical because they're masterwork quality.

The way I'd like to see this--and I know this sounds weird--is for masterwork items to gain skills.  So a masterwork pick would have a Mining skill, weapons would have weapon skill, a table used for meetings would develop Negotiator skill, etc.  This would add to the skill of the dwarf using the item.  When an item gets to Legendary in any skill, it becomes an artifact and gets a name.

This is more mystical than physically realistic, and if this were, say, Human Fortress, it would be out of place.  But I think it's a suitably dwarven attitude toward masterwork tools.  They're not just lumps of metal; they're alive in some sense, and have a unique "spirit" that both teaches and learns from the user.  (This is why destroying them is such an outrage.)

Obviously, it would be much cooler if crafting tools were implemented.  Tell me: Why do you have to have an axe to cut wood, and a pick to cut rock, but not a hammer to forge metal?  The game has hammers, they're just not used for forging.

[Cthulhu]

quote:Originally posted by Kagus:
<STRONG>No, that would be the name of a sword use in the massacre of a number of transvestites.</STRONG>

I lol'd.

And yes, this is a good idea.  Also, the game should spawn a number of artifacts at worldgen, so people who aren't good at Dwarfmode can have them on their adventurers.

[mutant mell]

quote:Originally posted by irmo:
<STRONG>

The idea of "magical but not masterwork quality" bugs me.  It's un-dwarven.  Crafted things are magical because they're masterwork quality.

The way I'd like to see this--and I know this sounds weird--is for masterwork items to gain skills.  So a masterwork pick would have a Mining skill, weapons would have weapon skill, a table used for meetings would develop Negotiator skill, etc.  This would add to the skill of the dwarf using the item.  When an item gets to Legendary in any skill, it becomes an artifact and gets a name.

This is more mystical than physically realistic, and if this were, say, Human Fortress, it would be out of place.  But I think it's a suitably dwarven attitude toward masterwork tools.  They're not just lumps of metal; they're alive in some sense, and have a unique "spirit" that both teaches and learns from the user.  (This is why destroying them is such an outrage.)

Obviously, it would be much cooler if crafting tools were implemented.  Tell me: Why do you have to have an axe to cut wood, and a pick to cut rock, but not a hammer to forge metal?  The game has hammers, they're just not used for forging.</STRONG>

Yes, I realize this, but I wanted them to become artifacts just because of the limitations at this stage.  When I first thought of this ideas, here is what I originally thought:

"When a person dies accomplishing something great (or vile), or slays someone else in an epic combat, a little bit of the soul of the person who died becomes attached to one of the items involved in the conflict, magically enchanting the item with an effect that is related to the person who died, and what deed was accomplished."

So, what I originally thought of was different than what I posted, but I changed it because I thought it would be more feasible just to call them artifacts at this stage.

EDIT: I really like your take on artifacts, and it does seem to be a very dwarf-ish take on them.  I like it a lot, and I agree that magic items and artifacts need to be split up.

[ February 29, 2008: Message edited by: mutant mell ]

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by irmo:
<STRONG>The way I'd like to see this ... is for ... items to gain skills.  So a masterwork pick would have a Mining skill, weapons would have weapon skill, a table used for meetings would develop Negotiator skill, etc.  This would add to the skill of the dwarf using the item.  When an item gets to Legendary in any skill, it becomes an artifact and gets a name.

This is more mystical than physically realistic, and if this were, say, Human Fortress, it would be out of place.  But I think it's a suitably dwarven attitude toward masterwork tools.  They're not just lumps of metal; they're alive in some sense, and have a unique "spirit" that both teaches and learns from the user.  (This is why destroying them is such an outrage.)</STRONG>

In fact, this is an excellent idea. I think all objects should gain experience, but the craftdwarfship of an object affects how much it gains (how "aware" it is). This would also tie in nicely with the OP suggestion that objects turn artefact by going through epic situations.

[Nesoo]

quote:Originally posted by irmo:
<STRONG>[snip]</STRONG>

This idea is made of coolness. It menaces with spikes of pure awesome.

[Retro42]

Why not replace "Artifact" is this can with..um...."Renowned"?

Think of it like this:

A normal iron sword is used by a normal swordsdwarf to kill um.... a titan.  The sword could get a #Iron Sword# (or something) and it would be renamed to a special title, so actually #Titan Slayer#.  MAYBE it could get magic bonuses (when that arc goes in) or just a slight damage increase.

Retro

[Fedor]

Irmo's suggestion has got to be one of the best ever offered.  It's ideas like this for which this forum was made!

[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by Mikademus:
<STRONG>

In fact, this is an excellent idea. I think all objects should gain experience, but the craftdwarfship of an object affects how much it gains (how "aware" it is). This would also tie in nicely with the OP suggestion that objects turn artefact by going through epic situations.</STRONG>

Hmm.  I still like limiting it to masterworks, because it makes them special.  I like the symbiosis, so to speak, between artifacts and legendary dwarves.  Currently they're sort of linked, in that strange moods produce artifacts and often make the dwarf legendary.  With my proposal, legendary (or just highly skilled) dwarves make masterworks, which are eligible to become artifacts.  So in a way, legendary dwarves make artifacts.

Conversely, artifacts make legendary dwarves.  Take an artifact pick and give it to a totally green miner.  He works several levels above his actual mining skill, which means he mines several times faster and gains skill faster.  He can get to legendary in a matter of months instead of years.

Similarly, military dwarves with artifact weapons don't just get a measly weapon quality bonus; they actually fight like they know what they're doing, because that hammer has seen five hundred years of battle and knows how to take care of itself.  Therefore, they'll survive long enough to make it to high skill levels.

[Mikademus]

quote:Originally posted by irmo:
<STRONG>Hmm.  I still like limiting it to masterworks, because it makes them special.  I like the symbiosis, so to speak, between artifacts and legendary dwarves.  Currently they're sort of linked, in that strange moods produce artifacts and often make the dwarf legendary.  With my proposal, legendary (or just highly skilled) dwarves make masterworks, which are eligible to become artifacts.  So in a way, legendary dwarves make artifacts.</STRONG>

Looking at history, many artefacts are in fact very plain, ordinary or even outright poor things surrounded by legend. Some prominent examples are the Grail and the Spear of Antioch. Many have later been embellished and ornamented.

Either objects could gain in workmanship level with experience (reflecting additional care of owners or artificers, or even the object reconstituting itself with growing awareness). Again, this would nicely integrate and combine all suggestions in this thread.