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Author Topic: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-  (Read 4309 times)

ronnyfire

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Re: List of expanded skills?
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2010, 01:47:52 am »

Alright! reply time again! =D

Hyndis:
I am not saying that i think splitting some skills up is better because of complexity, nor realism. And i never implied it. The reason i have for wanting to split the more broad skills up is how easy it is to get these skills up to legendary due to items they make being required in ridiculous numbers throughout your fort (blocks, tables, beds, chairs, barrels, etc...)

Praguepride:
I think i may have to give you a hug..
I forgot how much i love generalized/specialized systems like that!(Ragnarok online anyone? =p )
This seems to get what I want to happen, without over-complicating it for new people.
Including this in the main post!

Impaler[WrG]:
I really like the idea of splitting skills into these categories! It seems like something that would, if labeled and defined properly in game, help out people who are newer to the game, as well as giving a good base to balance out how various tasks pay, in the economy. I also like your breakup of the skills you listed in your later post.

As far as having just one hauling job goes, I'm on the fence. It would help lessen the number of skills in the list.. but i also like having combat trained dawrves as my wood haulers, so they aren't doomed upon seeing that undead groundhog.

Dwarves hurting themselves on the job... seems fun. DEFINITELY confusing for new players who are putting along and don't know why the mason is bedridden. So i think i have to disagree with it until most of the game is more newbie friendly.

NW_Kohaku:

To agree with the smithing bit. After reading around a good bit more I am thinking the further separation of smiths is unnecessary, and scary for newbies, so I'm going to eliminate it from the main post until someone comes around with an awesome idea for it, if ever.

Edit: Capntastic posted as i was typing this :P

Capntastic:
If not something like Praguepride was suggesting, i would totally go for what you just said as my vote.

Ideas so far are updated into the list of possibilitys
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 02:50:22 am by ronnyfire »
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Impaler[WrG]

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2010, 03:31:03 am »

Quote
I really like the idea of splitting skills into these categories! It seems like something that would, if labeled and defined properly in game, help out people who are newer to the game, as well as giving a good base to balance out how various tasks pay, in the economy. I also like your breakup of the skills you listed in your later post.

Thanks, I it helps reduce the clutter of the skill system, people can tell some important 'rules' about a skill immediately just by knowing its class "This skill could be raised in a mood", "This skill can't be raised at all", most of this already exists and this would just clarify it.  It also makes it (in my opinion) a bit easier to add more skills as many skills are now 'small'.  I think it also has some implications for societal-class, historically guilds are from the Craft skills so their could be another important point of distinction their if guilds get included again.  At the very least it eliminates absurdities like Legendary Lye-makers and by restricting that title to a smaller group makes it a bit more special.

Also I'm starting to like my name scheme (Craft, Job, Labor) less and less because the work job already has connotations within DF and Labor isn't clearly 'low' enough, I think (Craft, Work, Menial) might be better.  This would create "Craft skill", "Work skill" and "Menial skill" all of which roll of the tongue and have immediately obvious rank-order.

Quote
As far as having just one hauling job goes, I'm on the fence. It would help lessen the number of skills in the list.. but i also like having combat trained dawrves as my wood haulers, so they aren't doomed upon seeing that undead groundhog.

I didn't say their should be only one hauling job (as in toggle-able job for dwarves), just one skill (of Menial class), again my use of 'job' in the skill ranks could have been the the source of the confusion.  One skill can allow multiple jobs, as is already possible.

Quote
Dwarves hurting themselves on the job... seems fun. DEFINITELY confusing for new players who are putting along and don't know why the mason is bedridden. So i think i have to disagree with it until most of the game is more newbie friendly.

You have a good point their, it could easily trip people up and would need to have a good means of being conveyed to the player to make it clear both when an injury is sustained and later why/how any injury happened (this goes for all injury, I'm constantly missing this kind of stuff).
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ronnyfire

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #17 on: March 12, 2010, 03:44:53 am »

OK, so if i get your correctly now, your saying you could still tell a dwarf to only haul wood, while ignoring stone, but it would be listed as one menial class skill that would inform you of how good the dwarf is at any/all the hauling skills?

Also, main post is more organized, im going to be off camping for a couple days this weekend, so ill come back to this and sort everything out again/more once i am home.

Please keep the awesome ideas flowing =]
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 03:46:24 am by ronnyfire »
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Impaler[WrG]

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #18 on: March 12, 2010, 03:49:10 am »

Quote
Praguepride brought up, what i think is a brilliant option. Skills having tiers! You would start with a carpenter, and upon reaching a certain  level, he/she automatically specializes based on what he/she has made and or his/her likes and dislikes! It keeps the simplicity of choosing carpenter for newbies, while eliminating the silliness of creating masterwork doors just because you have been making barrels your whole life.

Interesting are you envisioning this as a kind of 'third tier' below current skills and skill families?  For example

Wood Working (Family)
> Carpentry
>> Cooper

Not quite sure on how that would work but it could have some potential.  Would their be a graphic for Cooper and similar traits on that tier?  Would Carpentry remain as a true 'skill' with it's own XP or just be behave as a kind of 'title' a bit like Wood Working is now or perhaps you can only gain skill in it up to the point ware a specialization must be chosen?
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ronnyfire

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2010, 03:57:07 am »

From what i can tell, the idea is this:

You make your dwarf, Urist McWoodydwarfguy, a carpenter, he is exactly like a carpenter till he reaches some predefined level (probably professional), at which point he is able to make any wood product reasonably well, but not at legendary status yet. He stops being better as a general carpenter, and gets assigned a specialization based on what he has made the most of in his career(cooper for barrels, for example) and can level up that by making barrels, eventually reaching legendary status.

End result being someone who can make anything out of wood at a professional level, but makes legendary barrels
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: List of expanded skills?
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2010, 12:32:55 pm »

Longish post to just quote

Regarding this, I would rather a slightly modified idea...

That "Tricks of the Trade" idea seemed the best way of handling skills like this, in my opinion, although I support a modified idea of that, as well.

Generally, I would prefer, instead of having players track a large set of experience pools, just having a general "what jobs you will complete" and skills that reflect those choices.  You then, upon hitting certain experience point totals, can start getting perks for your high degree of skill, that could do specific bonuses.  It might be based upon an invisible, or likely just buried (in the fullpage dwarf view menu) "scorecard" that tallies what the dwarf had made.

As such, a skilled carpenter would eventually get a perk, and if he only ever makes barrels, that would be a barrel-making perk, which would give a bonus to barrel production speed, or quality, or maybe something that would actually be special, like getting a "free" decoration in the wood once you've managed to really lay down large amounts of experience. 

It wouldn't have to require any more work or data management on the part of the player, except maybe having a "perk list" on a page of the sidebar dwarf view.
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praguepride

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2010, 02:31:09 pm »

I don't know if perks makes sense though. Why would a carpenter suddenly realize he can decorate furniture with gems...

and nothing is stopping furniture from getting decorated anyway, so I don't see the benefit.

I think having artificial "perks" is a step in the wrong direction, but that's just my thoughts.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2010, 04:24:44 pm »

I don't know if perks makes sense though. Why would a carpenter suddenly realize he can decorate furniture with gems...

and nothing is stopping furniture from getting decorated anyway, so I don't see the benefit.

I think having artificial "perks" is a step in the wrong direction, but that's just my thoughts.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean by a "free decoration".

What I mean is that they can put some kind of personal flourish on a item they make, like carving a pattern into the side of the barrel without using any kind of extra materials.
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teloft

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2010, 06:07:05 am »

My grandfathers father was a Cooper, then later became a farmer.


I like the Potential ideas of Synergy, Generalisation, Specialisation, Production- and Material familiarity.

To incorporate these all in one system would be the cool thing.

On Material familiarity

So that I get points in wood, and thus I am better at working with wood.  I get points in fire and I am better at working with flames.  So at the wood-burner workshop I can gain these points. The fire points can then also be useful at the smelter, and the wood points would be used everywhere some wood is used.

I would also like it to be petty complicated, but without needing much player action. So the type of wood used will mater.  So, I have a oak that is wood, so I get points for working with oak and also points for wood. So I am better at working with oak wood than other wood.

Now for the wood cuting, lets say I use a axe chopping down the living oak wood... I should get a lot of points for the ... axe, chopping, living, oak and wood.

Ill stop now...

« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 06:22:52 am by teloft »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2010, 10:27:44 am »

My grandfathers father was a Cooper, then later became a farmer.


I like the Potential ideas of Synergy, Generalisation, Specialisation, Production- and Material familiarity.

To incorporate these all in one system would be the cool thing.

On Material familiarity

So that I get points in wood, and thus I am better at working with wood.  I get points in fire and I am better at working with flames.  So at the wood-burner workshop I can gain these points. The fire points can then also be useful at the smelter, and the wood points would be used everywhere some wood is used.

I would also like it to be petty complicated, but without needing much player action. So the type of wood used will mater.  So, I have a oak that is wood, so I get points for working with oak and also points for wood. So I am better at working with oak wood than other wood.

Now for the wood cuting, lets say I use a axe chopping down the living oak wood... I should get a lot of points for the ... axe, chopping, living, oak and wood.

Umm... WHAT? 

You honestly want the game to track different experience levels PER TYPE OF TREE? (And it being a living tree, too... so now, we have different experience tallies for living trees and dead trees?)

Exactly, WHY would anyone want this?  How would chopping down an oak make you better suited to carving an oak (as opposed to a maple or other kind of tree) in the first place, or for that matter, burning an oak into ash, or using an oak spear you lift off an elf? 

It's not only the highest degree of complexity in a suggestion for benefits I have yet to see satisfactorily explained to me, but it is also hugely unrealistic (so that reason flies out the door), as well as virtually impossible to represent to a player in a way they would be able to understand.  In order to understand what sort of experience a dwarf would have under a system like that, they would need the ability to check a half-dozen different variables which ALL combine in different ways.  (Or if you're serious about keeping this hidden from the player, it just makes it simply impossible to know, making the game effectively just stick out its tongue at you and tell you that you suck for not keeping notes on what, exactly every dwarf has been doing over the entire course of your fortress.)

I again have to say that while the current system, where every activatable labor has no more than one skill that gains experience when that labor is used, so that someone with one labor active has one skill trained, may not be perfect, but it is clearly easier to control and makes more logical sense than making you track dozens of sub-skills that all gain different experiences, and would force you to prevent dwarves from gaining experience in the sub-skills you don't want.
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praguepride

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2010, 10:32:32 am »

The issue is that just because you mine stone all day doesn't make you better at crafting a stone ring.

On some examples it works, on others it breaks down a bit. So going from a stone cabinet to a stone chest should have huge amounts of synergy.

However, going from a stone cabinet to a stone short sword should have little-to-no cross over synergy. Just because the material (stone) is being used doesn't mean you suddenly have any clue on how to create a weapon.

So, the there are three answers to that problem (that I can see)

1) Create a system so ass-end convaluted that people's eyes would bleed and brains would pop just thinking about it. "So stone synergy applies x2 for items made within the same workshop, but has only a 1/2 effective rate when applied to items made in workshops in other families, and 1/4 effectiveness from items made in items on the opposite end of the spectrum!"

2) Ignore the logical errors and just gloss over it. Say "stone is stone", screw realism and just say it is what it is. THe problem with THIS is that if you're not caring about realism, why even try and put this in as a more realistic system?

3) Try and create a simple/effective way to say that across the game, this and this don't crossover. Something like all furniture crosses over for furniture (so making a stone cabinet makes you better at building wooden beds) and that weapons & armor are exempt from synergy (due to the extreme customization involved. So building wooden beds doesn't make you suddenly adept at crafting shields.) This would be the most complicated part on our ends, but would create a system that is both intelligent and actually improves on the current system, instead of just shifting the problems around.
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Silverionmox

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2010, 03:40:30 pm »

Begone, false dilemma! 3 is the same as 1 (some synergy applies in some cases), except that one is called convoluted and the other intelligent.

Material familiarity does make a difference for crafting. If you worked with stone, you're familiar with its weight, behaviour under different conditions, brittleness, patterns, etc. How much exactly is a matter of opinion, and therefore must be moddable.

The assumption we need to drop is that the player must be able to predict exactly how many mugs per hour a stonecrafter will produce after three years in the profession. That will still be influenced by resource availability, the individual dwarf's characteristics etc anyway. Knowing that a dwarf who did stuff with stone in the past will have an advantage when doing other stuff with stone in the future suffices.

Secondly, there's no reason to hard-code it. Opinions inevitably diverge on what should or shouldn't benefit from synergy. Additionally, if it's in the raws, people can toy around and experiment with its effects on gameplay so Toady doesn't need to do that all by himself.

A common way to solve this is a hierarchy of skills: Skills are divided and subdivided into groups; each skill synergizes with other skills in the same group. Eg. Woodworking is a groups, subskills are carpenter, woodcrafter, bowyer. Both bowyer and carpenter skill would add a % of their value to the woodcrafter skill when it was used. Advantage: familiar. Disadvantage: unprecise, hard to mod.

Another way is to add specific synergies for each skill. Eg: the carpentry skill gets a tag that says [synergy:woodcrafting:10] or something like that, meaning that carpentry gets a bonus of 10% of the woodcrafting skill when used. Advantage: precise; Disadvantage: confusing raws, bloated tagging.

A third way, that has come up long before the current skill discussion by the way, is to split up the skills into parts, so we can more easily track what exactly overlaps. Typical parts are material, tools, process, products etc. Advantage: very precise, flexible; Disadvantage: mostly irrelevant distinctions (eg. between ash and elm wood).

A solution to that disadvantage is to allow broader categories of materials. Certain jobs would then add their experience to all their subtypes:
- eg. using wood could apply to olm, oak and everything else for making furniture, but making bows could only give experience for the specific wood types used.
- eg. Doors, beds, cabinets, armor stands etc. would all be considered 'furniture' (as determined by tags) and would contribute their experience to a single furniture skill.
- eg. Magicking with magma, heat, fire elementals or 'haste' could all be considered fire magic. Summoning fire elementals, conjuring sprites, calling an extraplanar being could all be considered summoning magic. All fire, water, etc. magic could be considered elemental magic.

This would be very flexible, and require no special effort on behalf of the player, because everything is tracked automatically. Adding a material, object or whatever to a broader group would best happen at the raw entry of that whatever so it's added and deleted when adding or deleting whatevers.

If Toady decides that keeping track of that data is not feasible for coding reasons, an intermediate solution is to stick with the broader categories and not track specific materials. However, since these ought to be moddable, the programmed flexibility of the raws ought to be able to do the same anyway.

Another way to include specialization (on materials, items or whatever) is to let it depend on group membership (guild, civ, fortress, etc.) To see them acquiring that knowledge magically just by stroking their membership card seems wrong to me, though.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 03:54:06 pm by Silverionmox »
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ronnyfire

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2010, 06:28:52 pm »

Back from the desert! time to reply and update =D

NW_Kohaku:

I am liking the idea of perks being added to a specialization kind of thing, as long as we can come up with a  good list of perks for just about any skill (maybe only ones that fall into the crafts list of Impaler[WrG]?)

Teloft:

*Ahem *
OMGWTF NO?xD
Do you want to give every newbie a heart attack upon trying to understand how a dwarf learns??

Sorry for that, but really... dude..

Praguepride:

Basically going to respond to your #3 =P

I am going to have to disagree with the exclusion of synergies helping armor and weaponry, mostly based on my blacksmithing experience, and lightly based on my experience making wooden weapons/shields.(i dunno about leather armor, or stone weapons.) But they should get a lesser synergy than cabinet making to bed making for sure =P

As far as a system for this goes, ill post when i come up with what i think is a good basis for one (i have a few good dwarf fortress playing friends to bounce ideas like that off of.)

Silverionmox:

Um, no.
Praguepride's number one describes something far too extreme  (look at Teloft's post...) while his 3rd idea lists keeping the synergies simple, larger categories, and planning/development of a simple system for managing and displaying this information.

as far as material familiarity, i have to agree, knowing how to chip a stone to a sharp point or in a shape you want, is something that applies across anything that uses stone. although something like material familiarity only helps for so long, AKA, no matter how many obsidian mugs you make, that stone sword wont be masterwork unless you also work at being good at crafting swords.

I would like to see a system eventually that is modifiable in raws, but that doesnt eliminate the need to come up with a good default for everything to be set at. if the community wants something to be done, we must get as close to being a finished plan as we can, before it even really becomes a viable option...

That aside..
i think in any circumstance, breaking up synergies into individual objects is a bad thing, because of just how many stones, metals and trees there are. Also, SO confusing to a newbie, wondering why his bowman who has been making crossbows from towercaps you brought on embark forever, suddenly isn't as good, just cause he is using the native trees.

It would also screw over rare materials. or make players take the extra effort to specialize in a material if they want everything to be of good quality.

Keeping the synergy groups simple seems to be use most user friendly way to go, even with an awesome interface a lot of sub levels of synergies will confuse people.



To all,
I hate to have to stress the need for everyone, but newbies are already scared away from dwarf fortress due to the learning curve.
My idea is to come up with a system that is easy to access, and doesn't penalize someone right off the bat just because of a lack of knowledge.

So far the generalize/specialize system with or without perks seems to be the most user friendly, while still stopping your 2000 barrels needed to run a fortress, ruin the difficulty of getting everything in your fortress awesome
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2010, 06:49:06 pm »

You know, I really have trouble trying to understand quite a bit of what you were saying in that last one, Silverionmox, although I do think the only way there will ever be peace between the many tribes is if this is just left moddable for all those who are convinced that their way is superior.

The problem I have with Praguepride's idea is that you can only specialize in one thing.  (Yes, I know that is sort of a definition of specialization, but still...)

What this means is that if you have someone as your only carpenter, and you want him to be really good at beds, but accidentally, he got into some barrelmaking when you weren't thinking, and needed some more barrels, and got himself specialized as a barrelmaker, then HAHA! Too bad, sucker, you're stuck with a barrelmaker specialist.

That sort of thing encourages micromanagement/exploitative thinking in order to force the sort of specialization you want.

If you have a perk that activates intsead of a specialization, you can just collect more perks by continuing to have them work on their jobs.
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ronnyfire

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Re: List of expanded skills? -Skills talk in general-
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2010, 06:52:24 pm »

Mmm, i see no problem with being able to specialize in multiple things, it would just have separate experience past a certain point in each sub category, but perks seems a viable option as well.
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