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[neek]

About six months ago, the same time I started wearing the very same pair of three-week contact lenses I'm wearing today, I made a slight suggestion in a thread about Fortress Culture. I wanted to revisit this idea, to give it a better depth and scope, and make it a good enough idea to add into DF Eternal Suggestions.

Abstract

The basic idea behind this is that each Fortress will generate its own style. We already have something like this, with "menaces with spikes" and "adorned with hanging rings", but this suggestion is to expand this into being more unique for each fort.

The suggestion implies the following:

• Specific dwarves or situations will create new "styles" on manufactured objects.
  
  • Legendary Dwarves: Generate a new style 1/1000th of a time when manufacturing.
  • Artifacts: Generate a new style with every artifact created.
  • Assimilation: Styles from other cultures might end up being adopted.
• Styles are descriptive elements that appear in the Description menu for an object. They may or may not increse the value of the object.
• Styles are transferable to other materials or types of crafts, as long as certain requirements are met; i.e., one style might appear on a ring, but once available, the same style will appear on any number of created items.
• Styles may sometimes require an additional object; the value of the additional object should be added directly, with no multipliers, into the total value of the main object.
• Styles are not always created when an object is manufactured. The "decision" to utilize a specific style should be dependent on the dwarf's preference, mood, quality of product, and a good deal of randomization.
• Current styles will be trackable, available in some context in Legends, and become popular or unpopular as time goes on. Styles might also appear in the preferences of a specific dwarf

A style should help breathe life into a fortress, not overwhelm it with pointless descriptors. It shows that the style

Introduction: What is a style?

A style is a specific descriptor added to an object manufactured natively in a Fortress. It is a tag that helps define the physical appearance of an object. Few style might require additional material to produce, and in the instance that it does (though this should not conflict with "Sew leather image", "Stud with metal", "Decorate with bone/shell/gem", etc.), the lack of the additional material should not produce an announcement--just that no style was added to the object.

Being descriptors, some idea should be given to help define what is being proposed:

• This is a masterwork carp bone ring. The ring is carved with spiral grooves, as is the style of the Urists of Uristing."
• This is a finely crafted tower cap barrel. The barrel is corked with plump mushroom stalk, as was the style of the Urists of Uristing in 317.

The limit for styles per item is 1. Items should not be covered with multiple styles.

Style adoption or loss

Only three options are viable for the addition or creation of a style:

• A dwarf with the appropriate Legendary skill manufactures an object; this chance should be EXTREMELY rare.
  
• An artifact is made.
• A foreign item is introduced.

A Legendary dwarf produces far less than he produces a masterwork item; this is so that new styles do not roll out with every batch of masterwork items. In the case of an artifact, this gives further usefulness to cheap artifacts, so that not each one is generally worthless or useless. Importing or "liberating" a foreign item with a style already on it might spark a creative revolution, granting dropped items by enemies or items gained through bartering far more value.

After introduction of a style, it should take approximately one month to a season for a new style to become apparent on items; depending on random chance, the Fortress may not adopt the new style. This might cause unhappy thoughts only in the case of Legendary dwarves generating new styles. A new style might be adopted in favor of an older only when a new one becomes apparent and "catches on", or the old style might make a come back.

In order of a style to catch on, it might be handled by random chance, or by the preferences of dwarves. This is currently a difficult thing to approach, and might need work.

Fortresses should have a limited number of styles, dependent on the size of a population, in addition to some randomly inherited styles. These randomly inherited styles might replicate or take the place of "adorned with rings" or "menaces with spikes."

Interface

Styles should be easily implemented onto the interface. At its core, it appears only on the description of an item. A stylized item should also be be viewable in the items quality, in the same token as any other value modifier. Which characters to use to display stylized items is up for debate.

Additionally, styles should be viewable in the [z] menu, under a new Culture tab. This shows the history of the Fortress's styles, when it was adopted, and when it was disregarded. Additional elements might appear, such as th creator or the source item. Legends might also show, but only in the instance that it populated from an artifact. No existing interface should become cluttered with this concept.

Implementation ideas

The most direct way of handling this is directly writing the styles into raws, and allowing a semi-random process to enter into it. Each entity in the raw should give a basic description or outline, allowable items that this style will appear on, and any additional regents.

Because this idea is a bloat, it should require very minimal core processing. It should be no different than generating a new engraving.

Foreseeable problems and oversights

This suggestion is a bloat. It doesn't require user interaction, is handled in the background, and only provides cosmetic and atmospheric details. If implemented, it should interact with existing developments, only to ensure that it doesn't become an additional concept that isn't utilized anywhere else.
1). Until masterwork items are tracked worldwide, stylized items are native to the fortress or randomly generated. A traded stylized item should not re-appear until masterwork items are tracked also.
2). Once tracking is implemented, foreign styles might contain a bit of (unseen) history, allowing cultural cohesion.

Certain imported styles might be deplorable to the existing dwarves, such as utilizing dwarven leather as a regent. Existing tags on ethics might help negate adoption of incompatible styles.

So, comments/suggestions/want to bitch at me for suggesting something worthless?

[Ravenplucker]

I quite like the idea

5 out of 5 bloody elf heads!

[Andeerz]

Oooooh!!!  This is so cool!  This could be sort of a beginning of a modeling of knowledge and cultural transfer between settlements and civs and stuff!!!

[ungulateman]

Let's stop with the sugar rush and look at this objectively.

This is an awesome idea.

:p

[Acanthus117]

This is an interesting idea. It has my support!

[ed boy]

This sounds good, but how much interaction would the player have in styles? Although the styles would be implemented randomly, I would like some way of changing which ones are kept and which are not. If a style catches on of bathing my items in a pool of elf blood, I don't want the replaced by a style of engraving pictures of happy little elves on everything.

[atomfullerene]

really like this idea.  A few comments:  1-if your fort picks up an item style from another habitation it should retain the name of the previous habitation when engraved by your dwarfs...so maybe loads of forts use the very popular "boatmurdered" style of items.

second, for generating styles from masterwork items, maybe it could be tied to the frequency with which items were made.  So you are more likely to get a "socks made in the style of X" if you make a lot of quality socks. 

Finally, once the caravan arc is straightened out and transfer between fortresses is made more efficient, it would really be neat to trade for goods and see that they were made in the style of your previous fortress, and think back to the fey mood from a lowly hauler that started it all.

[Kilo24]

Hmm.  I could see this getting interesting if you also put a value mod on it that would be modified by supply and demand of dwarves who care about it.

[The_Kakaze]

I think a dwarf that has created an artifact should have a higher than average chance of creating new styles.  In the art world, a person will make their name with one piece and then they steer world styles for a while, because people tend to pay more attention to them.

[NW_Kohaku]

I like the idea on the face of it. 

I kind of think of it like a school of artwork, where some young punk comes up with something like "Cubism" and all the young artists flock to try to imitate the new wave, while the older ones become more and more of a "classic" way of doing things.

I would rather, however, that "fashions" be associated with a single dwarf sort of the way that an artifact is associated with a dwarf now - they can only create one fashion (or have a ten-year or more delay between when they create a fashion and when they can create a new one) that they then will likely spend much of their time trying to put out to meet with whatever demand the other dwarves have for that fashion.  Popular fashions get imitators or apprentices, but the dwarf who created the fashion is forever linked to creating (or re-introducing) it.

[neek]

@Ravenplucker, @Ravenplucker, @ungulateman, @Acanthus117, thank you all. I appreciate you supporting this idea, and as soon as I can, I shall add it to DF Eternal Suggestions.

This sounds good, but how much interaction would the player have in styles? Although the styles would be implemented randomly, I would like some way of changing which ones are kept and which are not. If a style catches on of bathing my items in a pool of elf blood, I don't want the replaced by a style of engraving pictures of happy little elves on everything.

I can see some leeway (selecting your starting styles from the Mountainhome); I would rather have some portions of this randomized to keep it interesting and fresh. In lieu, I'd go a middle ground--when you depart from the Moutainhome, you take two styles with you--and you can swap those out with any style already adopted (So a Fortress can have its own "signature style", if you will). I find this an optimum solution, if only because some things are left out of your hand--but you do have some minimum control over it.

really like this idea.  A few comments:  1-if your fort picks up an item style from another habitation it should retain the name of the previous habitation when engraved by your dwarfs...so maybe loads of forts use the very popular "boatmurdered" style of items.

second, for generating styles from masterwork items, maybe it could be tied to the frequency with which items were made.  So you are more likely to get a "socks made in the style of X" if you make a lot of quality socks. 

Finally, once the caravan arc is straightened out and transfer between fortresses is made more efficient, it would really be neat to trade for goods and see that they were made in the style of your previous fortress, and think back to the fey mood from a lowly hauler that started it all.

• This doesn't seem unreasonable
• Again, nothing too impossible to implement or too overbearing--but remember that styles will be adopted to similar crafts. I would like to see more frequency from the item the style originates. So, sock styles might get adopted to clothes, but it'd be more likely to appear on those socks.
• This is what I hope for when I say I want to see this get bundled up with the Caravan Arc. You'll be given hints that your old fort had an impact on the world.

Hmm.  I could see this getting interesting if you also put a value mod on it that would be modified by supply and demand of dwarves who care about it.

Rather than a hard and fast rule on value (that is, the core value of the item remains the same), the trends could set a price adjustment. Having prices fluctuate based on new styles, abandoned styles, and retro-styles would grant the economy a nice little aspect that gives it a bit more realism. Even though this doesn't make it a "Wow, that's an economy that makes sense" fix, it's just a little detail that gives a warm and fuzzy.

I think a dwarf that has created an artifact should have a higher than average chance of creating new styles.  In the art world, a person will make their name with one piece and then they steer world styles for a while, because people tend to pay more attention to them.

I can see this happening; only because most Strange Moods will result in a Legendary dwarf, who will more frequently make masterful items. So your suggestion is already built into the game! (With the exception of those Strange Moods that don't grant Legendary status, but then again... they're being controlled by forces beyond themselves, fluff-wise, so it wouldn't make much sense to give them the artistic talent either to set trends.)

I like the idea on the face of it. 

I kind of think of it like a school of artwork, where some young punk comes up with something like "Cubism" and all the young artists flock to try to imitate the new wave, while the older ones become more and more of a "classic" way of doing things.

I would rather, however, that "fashions" be associated with a single dwarf sort of the way that an artifact is associated with a dwarf now - they can only create one fashion (or have a ten-year or more delay between when they create a fashion and when they can create a new one) that they then will likely spend much of their time trying to put out to meet with whatever demand the other dwarves have for that fashion.  Popular fashions get imitators or apprentices, but the dwarf who created the fashion is forever linked to creating (or re-introducing) it.

First, thank you.

Obviously, the artifact will display a style, but certainly the creator will receive the recognition, moreso than the item itself, right (at least, that's how I was thinking it--but even if your Secretive dwarf makes a crappy ring, he still contributes to the Fortress in much more than paltry wealth!). Consider this suggestion less like artisans creating signature styles in a modern sense, but more contributing (in an abstract way) to the Fortress culture.

To give a better (though lopsided) analogy, this isn't so much suggesting Urist Klein ☼Pig tail pants☼, as it is suggesting a certain way of manufacturing (i.e., clay jugs made in Greece can be identified to the era of manufacture and location rather succicintly by simply examining the handles--this just extrapolates that sort of logic into something more entertaining. Like Elf-blood dipped wooden bolts--a trademark of Craftslove!)

But, I'm not shooting down this idea, it's a great suggestion to further increase the value of this bloat. Instead of rewriting or reworking the entire system I've laid out, it would be preferable to add a new position to crafting dwarves, who have contributed X styles to the Fortress, who under some circumstances not yet defined have to compete to produce further specialized styles. But of course, this should be done with as little clutter, complexity, and micromanagement as possible.[/list]

[neek]

I hate double-posting, but this suggestion has been entered into Eternal Suggestions!

[jfs]

Would it make sense to have Styles possibly separate for the general manufacturing method (and resulting general shape) and for later applied decorations?
Such as if painting objects becomes an option at a point, an object crafted in one culture could be painted in a different style by a different culture: You import a batch of wooden cups from a human civilization, and then paint it in your local style.

[praguepride]

I think if this idea has any hope it should be kept away from manufacturing redesign. Keep the scope tightly focused

otherwise it'll get bogged down with it's own weight.

I think the simplest thing to do would be to add a one liner at the end of the description tag:

"This [ITEM TYPE] was made in the styling of [STYLE SOURCE]."

That is all that needs to happen as a simple "first draft" implementation. Item source would be Artifact/Foreign Culture/Legendary worker. They would essentially be fashions, but fashions for every possible item, not just clothing.

"This sword was made in the styling of Razorevengance, an artifact sword made in Boatmurdered."

It'd be a bit of a social experiment/observation to see how it spreads, how it gets countered etc. NOt everything needs to be made in stylings, perhpas some dwarfy personality type would make it more prone to

a) reject all styles (except their own, of course )
b) pick one style and stick with it, changing styles VERY rarely
c) keep up with the latest fashion, constantly switching styles.


Then as a second iteration, you can define what that style means. Perhaps it's some kind of decoration (rings of Red Spinel) so that only items that get decorated with Red Spinel can have that kind of "style."

You would be able to view the style types within a "cultures" tab and thus you could indirectly control styles. If you know that this style that you don't like (because you didn't create it) involves decorating with red spinel, you can:

a) just tell your dwarves not to decorate with red spinel completely eliminating the possability of copying that style

b) atom smash anything made that offends your style preference

c) identify dwarves following that style (would say in their profile) and forbid them from working until their style changes

Thus the user has SOME control, but doesn't micromanage it more then anything else in the game, he meta-manages it. He points the dwarves in a general direction and let's them loose.

So if micro-managing styles is a focus of yours, you can control dwarf work rates and material usage to only (probably) get the styles you think should be made.


Finally, exporting styles helps spread them around, and buying items helps enhance creativity, so this might be a reason why you buy a load of human or elf gear, to spread new styles around.



New Idea: Style Fusions
A dwarf who likes multiple styles can decide to pick from one or the other, or if he's particularly bold, creative (other personality type that's appropriate) he can create a style Fusion. It wouldn't be a new style per se, the name would say "It's style is a fusion between X and Y" but that in and of itself would be a new style. If it's listed on culture tabs though it wouldn't be listed as a new style because technically it's not a new one...argh this metathinking makes the head hurt