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[Capntastic]

I think Toady should do as he sees fit- it's seemed to work so far.

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by Rooster:
<STRONG>Also- Toady is an independant game developer and i think that acting like some kind of producer is not good for the game.Opening this game for the masses has been already planned as far as i know</STRONG>

Tarn isn't that old.  And besides, according to his own words he's going to outlive us all,

quote:The interface is coming, maybe not in your lifetime, but it's coming.

[SirPenguin]

Just to add my two cents.

I agree, and yet disagree, and it's hard to make demands of Toady when he's given us so much.

However, I will tell you this much. After a solid month and a half of constant playing, I've been forced to quit until the next major release. It's hard to say what the "biggest" issue is, as there are so many of them, including a horrid interface, framerate issues, bugs, and general lack of things to do end game.

So yes, I love the game to death, and Toady for making it. But due to the span between releases, I've been forced to quit until the next one comes out. It'd make more sense to release small bug fix releases, or to implement some of the easier suggestions, inbetween the big arcs. It's what game development companies tend to do, as it's a nice compromise between the devs and the users.

[Geofferic]

quote:Originally posted by Red Jackard:
<STRONG>I'm still wondering about the reasoning for the two parts I bolded. They seemed pretty left-field.</STRONG>

Explain how they're left-field and what part of them you aren't understanding, and I'll try to accommodate you.

Boldfacing a few words and saying "huh" does not exactly invite discourse.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by zagibu:
<STRONG>If only the game was open-source. Bug-fixing could happen almost immediately.
</STRONG>

It would also turn into a complete mess as a number of people independently introduced new bugs as well.   :p

[Dasleah]

Frequent releases for bug fixes only make sense for software that actually has bugs. I mean, DF isn't perfect, but I've been playing for near three months now, and I haven't even gotten a bug that's affected gameplay, let alone come close to crashing it. If DF was unstable and buggy and crashed every over season, then yeah, bug fix away. But Toady's smart. He won't release until he's got a stable version, and not anything before.

Hell, if only Windows was as reliable as DF.

[zagibu]

quote:Originally posted by mickel:
<STRONG>It would also turn into a complete mess as a number of people independently introduced new bugs as well.    :p</STRONG>

You mean, like it is happening in other open-source projects?

[Geofferic]

quote:Originally posted by zagibu:
<STRONG>
You mean, like it is happening in other open-source projects?</STRONG>

Tarn's reason for not going open source is that the minute he does he loses both control and revenue.

Open source would not help him in any way unless he wanted to stop working on DF.

[Sindai]

quote:Originally posted by Dasleah:
<STRONG>Frequent releases for bug fixes only make sense for software that actually has bugs. I mean, DF isn't perfect, but I've been playing for near three months now, and I haven't even gotten a bug that's affected gameplay, let alone come close to crashing it. If DF was unstable and buggy and crashed every over season, then yeah, bug fix away. But Toady's smart. He won't release until he's got a stable version, and not anything before.</STRONG>

Well, usually the first major release after a new feature is added does have some serious problem like performance issues or some broken game logic, which is why we quickly get b and c builds.

But aside from serious bugs, there's also the fact that the game could stand to have some playability improvements. As someone else mentioned above, a lot of people are interested in the game but simply can't stand to play it because of some major UI annoyances, the kind of things which are well-documented in those "top 3 suggestions" threads. (Full disclosure: I am one of these people.)

Basically, while a lot of people are impressed by the "big picture" Toady is going for, that doesn't make building walls one tile at a time or designating hundreds of pieces of stone for dumping by hand any more tolerable.

Of course, Toady has shown in interviews that he's certainly aware of all this, it's just that as long as people donate enough to keep him fed and housed there's no reason for him to change the way he does things. And I don't mean that as condemnation, it's just the way things are. There's plenty of other games to play and Toady will get that stuff in time.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by zagibu:
<STRONG>
You mean, like it is happening in other open-source projects?</STRONG>

Yes, exactly like that. A big mess of code pieces that don't work together is the last thing we want.

[mickel]

quote:Originally posted by Sindai:
<STRONG>There's plenty of other games to play and Toady will get that stuff in time.</STRONG>

That's very well said. It'll get done when it gets done. I've waited years for lesser games than this, and while I wait I have plenty of other games to keep me entertained.

[Geofferic]

And are you all happily donating away whilst not playing the game?

I don't quite understand why this is repeatedly framed as a gamer patience issue - it's a feeding Tarn issue.

We are infinitely patient - still waiting for Duke Nukem to come out.  However, we aren't PAYING the folks still building Duke Nukem.  They're living off proceeds from other games.

It is my believe that Tarn needs to change his development cycle to bring in more casual donors and to keep the base of the community active and challenged and DONATING.

[Red Jackard]

quote:Originally posted by Geofferic:
<STRONG>Explain how they're left-field and what part of them you aren't understanding, and I'll try to accommodate you.</STRONG>

What are you basing these claims off of? Why do you 'suspect' the lack of an API will become a problem in the immediate future - the supposed complexity of a version you haven't had a chance to actually play?

[ May 28, 2008: Message edited by: Red Jackard ]

[Geofferic]

The lack of an API or Tarn focusing on the interface will become a problem.

The italicized part went unsaid because Tarn has made it clear that he doesn't want to focus on the interface.

I suspect this will become a problem because Tarn has said it will become a problem and it has already been a notorious problem.

Not the lack of an API, per se, but the interface - an API is simply a relatively easy solution that doesn't require Tarn to continually tweak - the community will do that - but doesn't prevent him from developing his own perspective on the interface when he gets around to it.

Whenever he adds a new feature, he simply needs to add new hooks to the API and document what they are.  Fin.

And it is a problem and will continue to be a growing problem as the game gets more complex because it prevents new users from adopting the game - and thus donating to Tarn - and the old users will develop exhaustion with being the only support or boredom with the slow pace of updates.

I will say one more time for everyone that this is only an issue because Tarn relies on donations to generate income.  The pace of development is not 'slow' IMO, it simply is not being done in a way that I believe is sustainable from the donated income point of view!

[Sean Mirrsen]

We don't need an interface API. We need a well-defined, modular interface. Any new item or feature that gets added, it appears on the interface immediately without further mucking about in the code. And Toady will work on it when his plan takes him to it. He sticks to the plan - that's a sure way to finish something. Going out of his way to patch up the interface might have him mar more than is made.

And, in reference to DNForever - we are waiting, and we aren't paying, but we aren't PLAYING the damn thing either. DF is playable and stable, and I don't see a reason to refuse paying its creator some money to continue development. I don't think many people were upset with the changes introduced to the first 3D release of DF, and I know that at least for me, it was worth the 6 months' wait.