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[Geofferic]

More frequent, perhaps smaller, updates.

As one of the people who (quite happily) donates (not a fortune) to Tarn for his work, I have to say that I lose interest when waiting so long between releases.

I realize he's working on something huge, but the fact remains that some obnoxious bugs have been sitting around in the code all this time during development.  Also, it's really going to become a problem in the future (the near future, I suspect) if the interface isn't turned over to an API and the development of the interface given to the community.

If Tarn continues to take the approach of tackling huge development cycles with no intermediate code releases that alleviate bugs and the interface continues to be ... not up to the standards I'm sure Tarn would like ... the community is going to eventually give up on the project.

I say this and urge a different development cycle (moderately different only) wherein a week on, week off approach is used.  The major new features could be worked on every other week while in the intervening weeks minor features and bug fixes (hey, some code optimization would be nice, too!) could be released.  The major development code would be disabled (perhaps some of it could simply be commented out at compile) until he's ready to release it to the wild.

I think this would keep the sense of 'something new' always coming out and the feeling of interaction with Tarn at a high.  One of the great things about DF is to be able to point out a bug or possible feature improvement (or addition) and then see it added/fixed relatively quickly.

Which goes back to the interface API.  If the interface could be handled via an API, then there would be a new stream of updates and improvements to the game which Tarn would not even be responsible for.  Thus generating the 'something new' feeling, the community involvement aspect and addressing what is probably DF's single greatest weakness.

I have listened to all of Tarn's interviews that I'm aware of and I have read everything that I have had access to that he's published.  I realize that he has good reasons for not having dealt with the interface yet, but as he continues to add complexities to the game it will become a serious problem.  The army arc alone leads to untold difficulties with the current interface and military management once the player involvement side is handled.

So that's my 2 cents.

And for what it's worth, I'll be donating again when I get my next paycheck - I may feel like I lose interest in the time during major development cycles, but I want the development to continue - preferably with a different tack, but any process is better than none!

[viskaslietuvai]

First of all, I completely understand what you're saying. We all remember the z-level improvement. But when it was done, man was it awesome. So on the one hand, what you're suggesting that addition would have taken something like a year+ not counting loss of momentum. I think I remember it taking six months, right? Also, that raised a whole mess of its own issues with flows and all that which created bugs of their own. Like a happy glitchy family. Not knocking the game, it's just a fact of programming.

On the human side, people do get tired of waiting and would like to see a little tidbit here and there. So maybe some kind of compromise would be in order. Rather than week on week off with the main project. Maybe do a month on the big project and spend three days putting in some hidden fun stuff, not all of it, mind you, and some new critters, flavor text, or whatever. Just some silly thing to keep the attention of the slightly ADD. Then release the old version with the new inconsequential but entertaining stuff. Then keep going on the big project. Keeps interest up, keeps the momentum going on the big stuff. Just a thought.

And Toady, I ain't sayin' that what you are doing isn't interesting, it's just that a development log can only whet the appetite so much. And sorry I haven't donated yet. Poor student, no job, living on student loans, etc. Sure you don't care about excuses. I do intend to soon. Your product provided too much entertainment for me not to.

[kamikazemoose]

So you basicly want Toady to work on something big and at the same time do small bugfix releases? Wouldn't that mean he'd have to do all bugfixing twice? for the smaller releases and then for the bigger ones (because otherwise wouldn't they be gone with the big updates again)?

While I can understand you like the small releases (and I have too) I'll definately not stop playing because of a couple of months without updates. Especially not since there's most likely a big update at the end of it.

And even if people do leave while waiting for it I think many will come back a while later to check out the new awesomeness that have been added.

[Bricktop]

The problem is that with many of the big updates this would just have him working on fixing bugs in the full knowledge that when his big update is finished those bugs wouldn't be relevant anymore anyway.

I can understand where you're coming from with this, but I don't think it'd be a great idea. In some cases it'd effectively double Toady's workload for very little effect.

[martinuzz]

Patience is a virtue.

No, seriously. Waiting for a big update will only make it better.
Getting an update every week will just spoil us.
And as for bugs. Well, yeah, the present version has quite a few. But those bugs that are really gamebraking have been fixed, that's why it's 38c. And to be honest, in this version I've had some of the largest and most stable/succesful fortresses. So I don't think the present bugs are too bad.
And why should there be so many more difficulties with the interface when the Army Arc is in?

[Dasleah]

I'd rather see one big update every three months than one insignificant bug fix every week. Mainly because you can't really release something like the Army Arc in dribs and drabs - it's huge chunks all at once that often don't all come together for a while.

Plus, patience is a virtue. DF isn't a game for the twitch-happy. It's all about the long term.

[zagibu]

If only the game was open-source. Bug-fixing could happen almost immediately.
Ah well, a man can dream, can he not?

[Red Jackard]

quote:Originally posted by Geofferic:
I realize he's working on something huge, but the fact remains that some obnoxious bugs have been sitting around in the code all this time during development. Also, <STRONG>it's really going to become a problem in the future (the near future, I suspect)</STRONG> if the interface isn't turned over to an API and the development of the interface given to the community.

If Tarn continues to take the approach of tackling huge development cycles with no intermediate code releases that alleviate bugs and the interface continues to be ... not up to the standards I'm sure Tarn would like ... <STRONG>the community is going to eventually give up on the project.</STRONG>

Huh?

[Lazer Bomb]

quote:Originally posted by Geofferic:
<STRONG>I realize he's working on something huge, but the fact remains that some obnoxious bugs have been sitting around in the code all this time during development.  Also, it's really going to become a problem in the future (the near future, I suspect) if the interface isn't turned over to an API and the development of the interface given to the community.

If Tarn continues to take the approach of tackling huge development cycles with no intermediate code releases that alleviate bugs and the interface continues to be ... not up to the standards I'm sure Tarn would like ...the community is going to eventually give up on the project.</STRONG>

Or he could just work on everything himself, like he has for years. Why should he make it open source? He does work on bugfixes, you know. And he is going to work on the interface a bit next, from what I've heard. (To intice more people to donate).

And, so far, the "community" has not given up on the project. Sure, plenty of people stop checking in daily while a big project is being worked on, but those kinds of people would probably come back when they hear about a new, large release (Such as the army arc). And, there have been long waits between releases before, and look, there are still people posting. (release of z-levels).

"obnoxious bugs"? Not really. As of right now, there are very few bugs that damage the current experience. I can't really think of any that are bad.

[Awayfarer]

I say let the man work his magic. If it takes months, so be it. There's plenty of game in the mean time.

[Geofferic]

Something I left unsaid but, hmm, I guess needs to be said for some ...

Tarn's trying to make a living (or scrape by) doing this.  I'm not suggesting a change in his development cycle just because I would get a 'fix' more frequently - but because everyone would get a 'fix' more frequently.

Also, I donate 25-50 bucks each time, but I suspect that there's a lot more money to be made off of the droves of folks willing (and able) to donate 5 bucks at a go.  These are the folks that I am suggesting Tarn target with the more frequent, less dramatic updates.

I haven't seen one iota of his code, so I don't know what he's doing, but I suspect that it's modular to some extent.  As such, I see no reason why he could not do bug fixes/feature additions to modules that will not see much or any major changes by way of the next 'big thing'.

Finally, week on - week off is just a suggestion.  It's just an idea.  I can see how it might be better to be 4 weeks, 1 week or something like that.  Get on a roll with the big project, get it competed more quickly, etc.  I'm just throwing out ideas.

Again, this isn't a suggestion to simply alleviate my ADD.  I have lots to do (including work, law school, wife, etc) that keeps me from DF for days and weeks at a time.  It doesn't matter to me if he releases once a week or once a quarter.  I typically get to play once a month or every other month.  That's when I end up donating.

Looking at his last post about the financials is what's got me thinking that he needs a different development model - one that (alas, I know how dirty a word this is ...) feeds into the marketing of the game.

Seriously, the suggestion is one made with Tarn's bottom line in mind.

[Geofferic]

quote:Originally posted by martinuzz:
<STRONG>And why should there be so many more difficulties with the interface when the Army Arc is in?</STRONG>

Once the player side is added, you'll have a whole SLEW of new screens and features, commands and probably even units.  See Tarn's development updates and listen to his interviews, that's where my feeling about the interface problem becoming bigger was solidified by Tarn's own words.  I don't think there's any question in anyone's mind that military command and control simply doesn't work right now - if you add an entire new layer to it with more depth and breadth, you're going to have to reconsider the interface or risk the game becoming even more daunting for new players.

New players and their 5 bucks is what I suggest can drive Tarn to the grocery store and back.

[Sindai]

quote:Originally posted by kamikazemoose:
<STRONG>So you basicly want Toady to work on something big and at the same time do small bugfix releases? Wouldn't that mean he'd have to do all bugfixing twice? for the smaller releases and then for the bigger ones (because otherwise wouldn't they be gone with the big updates again)?</STRONG>

Actually, no. This is a solved problem in software engineering thanks to the miracle of source control software.

[Red Jackard]

I'm still wondering about the reasoning for the two parts I bolded. They seemed pretty left-field.

[Rooster]

I have calculated that I'll have to wait for this game 16 years(for all the known features). And I will do that if I'll have to. The question is : will toady decease before my 31th birthday? I hope not.

Also- Toady is an independant game developer and i think that acting like some kind of producer is not good for the game.Opening this game for the masses has been already planned as far as i know