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[Jacob/Lee]

When I started playing it took me a week of looking at "My first Fortress" to figure out how to play.

I've been playing for months, and I still don't know about everything.

[zwei]

Care to share an example of this ease to use with depth?

I think the more commands you got = the more depth. Make it less and you get less depth, but easier to use(More general commands) Seriously...I think the games perfect as it is with interface.

...

Bravo!

Another way is to design game so that depth is revealed as player progresses:

Only once player has some success setting up basics and handling core challenges (food, security, growth), he is presented with expanded gameplay that includes setting up varied industries (noble demands), workforce utilization (economy) and superior defences (military)

Even better, economy interface is hidden untill it is actually usefull.

Theese kinds of features are what makes very complex game able to coexist with interface.

[Caesar]

I don't fully get people having trouble with learning how to play Dwarf Fortress.

I got the basics in one night, and then figured out the details as I played.

Just make sure to use the wiki and you're fine, right?

[Exponent]

I don't fully get people having trouble with learning how to play Dwarf Fortress.

I got the basics in one night, and then figured out the details as I played.

Just make sure to use the wiki and you're fine, right?

I don't want to discount people's personal claims that they figured the game out quickly.  I trust you when you say that this has been your experience.

But clearly this isn't everyone's experience.  The game is hard for many people to pick up.  Should these people be excluded from the "appropriate" audience for DF?  Even if they would absolutely love the depth of the game, if only the ease of use (from their point of view) were improved?

Or do some here claim that there are very few people who fall into this category?  If so, that might be my biggest disagreement relevant to this thread, that a strong desire for ease of use does not strongly correlate with a lack of appreciation for deep gameplay.  I fall squarely into that category myself, and I suspect that many other gamers do too.  I love deep gameplay, but usability issues drive me crazy.

[Firehound]

I don't fully get people having trouble with learning how to play Dwarf Fortress.

I got the basics in one night, and then figured out the details as I played.

Just make sure to use the wiki and you're fine, right?

I don't want to discount people's personal claims that they figured the game out quickly.  I trust you when you say that this has been your experience.

But clearly this isn't everyone's experience.  The game is hard for many people to pick up.  Should these people be excluded from the "appropriate" audience for DF?  Even if they would absolutely love the depth of the game, if only the ease of use (from their point of view) were improved?

Or do some here claim that there are very few people who fall into this category?  If so, that might be my biggest disagreement relevant to this thread, that a strong desire for ease of use does not strongly correlate with a lack of appreciation for deep gameplay.  I fall squarely into that category myself, and I suspect that many other gamers do too.  I love deep gameplay, but usability issues drive me crazy.

Usability Issues? I tell my dwarves stand here, they tend to do so, unless they get hungry or Giant Insert normally unintimidating vermin here walk up and scare them. The unlearning curve of desensitizing yourself to the graphics and not expecting to have to jump about like a rabbit so you don't get knifed in the back is what is hard to learn. It took me two days to figure out what was what, and the first day I just said screw this, I aint able to figure it out.

A combination of wiki-magic and a friend allowed me to figure out what was going on.

[Raging Mouse]

Read this with a pinch of salt,

I wish the interface would stay unchanged, or possibly made even more convoluted.

Why? I play EVE. Players there like to proudly point out that they have mastered the game's vertiginous learning curve, but you can shut them up post haste by mentioning that you play DF.

[Kitpup]

I have to admit, it took me three days just to figure out what the heck I was looking at. And then it took me two more days to change my key bindings so that I could navigate the sub-menus on my laptop. And then a week before I could run a semi-functional fortress. And now it's today and I'm not crashing and burning. And finally figured out how to freaking trade.

I pretty much ignored all the tutorials out there when I started, I couldn't tell what I was seeing so they were useless. It's been pretty much me running to and from the wiki every time I had the 'I wonder how I...' thought. I'd be lost without it.

[Exponent]

Read this with a pinch of salt,

I wish the interface would stay unchanged, or possibly made even more convoluted.

Why? I play EVE. Players there like to proudly point out that they have mastered the game's vertiginous learning curve, but you can shut them up post haste by mentioning that you play DF.

He he.  This attitude has always struck me as curious.  Such as certain StarCraft players complaining that StarCraft II will allow unlimited number of units in a single group.  They were proud of the fact that they were able to manage their units in groups of 12 and apparently thought that being allowed to manage 60 zerglings as a single group was cheating or something because it would make the game too easy.  The game is about strategy, not about having more agile fingers than a professional pianist.  (Obviously, that does make one a better StarCraft player, but not by design, I am sure.)  No amount of large group selection will overcome a player that can't make proper strategic decisions.  I am glad that Blizzard chose to not listen to those players (at least not on that particular item).

[smjjames]

I didn't have too much trouble as that tutorial by Tinypirate definetly helped give me a good start, not to mention reading the wiki and occasionally asking here on the forums.

Some things of course were learned in the course of playing and I'm a pretty quick learner.

I remember the first time I encountered the dreaded Carp, which was in a pool that was full of them and I certainly lost alot of dwarves that day.

[Hammurabi]

I don't recall anyone suggesting that the game needs to be made easier.  It's just the interface needs to be consistent and intuitive.  A well designed interface does not lessen the depth of the game.

Think of the converse.  Every time DF was loaded, all the menus were randomly scrambled with new hotkeys.  (b)uild -(d)oor might become (s)tatus - (r)build - (p)door.  Would this make the game harder to play?  Would it increase the enjoyment?  Would it make the game have more depth?

[smjjames]

I don't recall anyone suggesting that the game needs to be made easier.  It's just the interface needs to be consistent and intuitive.  A well designed interface does not lessen the depth of the game.

Think of the converse.  Every time DF was loaded, all the menus were randomly scrambled with new hotkeys.  (b)uild -(d)oor might become (s)tatus - (r)build - (p)door.  Would this make the game harder to play?  Would it increase the enjoyment?  Would it make the game have more depth?

Are you using the latest 40D##? Because those are still kind of buggy and are meant for testing.

I agree with your point though, the interface is kind of sprawled and the hotkeys aren't always intuitive.

[Caesar]

I don't recall anyone suggesting that the game needs to be made easier.  It's just the interface needs to be consistent and intuitive.  A well designed interface does not lessen the depth of the game.

Think of the converse.  Every time DF was loaded, all the menus were randomly scrambled with new hotkeys.  (b)uild -(d)oor might become (s)tatus - (r)build - (p)door.  Would this make the game harder to play?  Would it increase the enjoyment?  Would it make the game have more depth?

Are you using the latest 40D##? Because those are still kind of buggy and are meant for testing.

I agree with your point though, the interface is kind of sprawled and the hotkeys aren't always intuitive.

I must agree as well.

Perhaps it'd be a solution to categorize them even more.

For example; 'Designations' and 'build' could be, together with some other types, under a menu, imaginatively called;'Designations & building'. Then the player'd choose which one she/he wanted.

The same for 'Military' and 'squad' and some others. It'd make the list less overwhelming.

[bombcar]

I think when people seem to be arguing against interface improvements they are often arguing against improvements that remove current functionality. For example, mouse select is cool, but I would be very sad if the keyboard version were removed.

Kind of like people I know who don't want the latest version of Excel because they still use Lotus 123 shortcuts.

[Halconnen]

Given I started DF after I had been playing tomenet, zangband and a few other roguelikes for a while before that, getting into it was actually pretty easy.

At least DF lists the most used shortcuts on the interface if you want it to. XD

[bombcar]

Then again, maybe some people are jealous.