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[Neruz]

I'd put 'basic metalworking' in mining, and then require 'advanced metalworking' to use, well, advanced metalworking.

The basic stuff would basically be cold-forging metal, giving access to cold forged copper and iron, although if the iron is better than the copper (which it should be) then it should probably take more labour to make, since cold forging iron is a bitch.

Your advanced metalworking would then be forging, and possibly metallurgy (although that could be a seperate research in and of itself), forging would improve the quality of the metal equipment and decrease the labour cost, while metallurgy (either seperate or a part of adv metalworking) would allow one to mix copper and tin to get bronze, or use flux stone with iron to get steel.



Ultimately; it depends on if 'metal weapons' are generalized, or if steel is better than bronze which is better than iron which is better than copper. If the former, then you can keep it pretty generic, but if the latter then you should really introduce an extra 'step' to the iron\steel mix to make it harder to get to, since locating both copper and tin to get bronze is a real bitch.



If you want to go for a 'realistic' approach, iron should be unusable until advanced metallurgy and forging techniques are developed; which would require usage of Bronze to test those techniques, the advanced forging techniques that come about through the use of purified coal (coke) would then give Iron, and the advanced metallurgical techniques that come about through experimentation with flux and coke would then give Steel. Bronze would require more labour than Steel, which would require more labour than Iron, which would require more labour than Copper.



Your call; personally i'd go for either the realistic approach or the abstracted approach, mostly because i feel that it would be nice if Copper and Bronze actually got used, unlike in DF where they never do because it's the same amount of work to use Iron, which is better.

[Knight Otu]

My current idea is that iron and bronze would be available with mining and a smithy, with iron being initially worse than bronze, but bronze requiring copper and tin to be available. Further research should open up better metalworking techniques, such as steelmaking. Copper weapons I'm not sure if they'll be available. I guess I could instead go Copper and Iron with Mining, with Copper requiring only half the labor, but being weaker than iron, then going bronze, then steel, for instance.

[IronyOwl]

Personally, I'd prefer if various metals had at least theoretical uses, as opposed to, say, DF where you use iron until you can be bothered to make steel, at which point copper and bronze are just tables and goblets in waiting. I can understand some metals being better than others, but it kind of defeats the purpose of having them if their only function is "like that stuff, but it sucks."

[Neruz]

There's so much Iron in DF though that i never even bother to smelt Copper and Bronze; all my metalwork is made out of Iron, and later on, Steel (if i have flux on the map).

My current idea is that iron and bronze would be available with mining and a smithy, with iron being initially worse than bronze, but bronze requiring copper and tin to be available. Further research should open up better metalworking techniques, such as steelmaking.

That works. Ultimately though; it's your call.

[Knight Otu]

I'll aim to post the turn tomorrow at about this time. If Haika hasn't posted by then, he'll be skipped, and the Kodama will only gather enough food not to starve. My apologies for the delay on my behalf - there were a few things that distracted me from committing to the game.

[IronyOwl]

That's alright, I think it's good to have given Haika more time.

[Knight Otu]

A bit later than I wanted, and without map updates, but the forum move got into the way. Haika's turn has been skipped - no changes happened to the Kodama, not even population growth. Evilcherry got unlucky with the disease, but he got lucky with his quarrying.

I've decided to go with the idea that Mining provides access to bronze and iron, as well as the smithy. The rules will be updated in the game thread.

[Cheddarius]

The library says that it unlocks new technologies. Could you elaborate? There aren't any technologies that require the library at the moment... could you add them to the first post?

Or will we be forced to find out by ourselves? That seems a bit unfair; whoever gets a library first risks much, but everyone else knows exactly what they're getting.

[IronyOwl]

What does Metalsmithing do, then? Is it only for steel, or does it provide other benefits?

[Knight Otu]

Generally, anything past Engineering (or equivalently far technologies in other branches), most stuff past Astronomy, and anything past the first functional magic technology of a given magic branch will require the library to research.

Mining and a Smithy will allow metal swords/axes/spears, shields, and basic metal armor that is rather inflexible, reducing speed.

Metalworking will allow for more flexible armor, at the cost of 1 more labor.

[IronyOwl]

Probably because I've been playing Fire Emblem, where weapons form a rock/paper/scissors type arrangement, I feel the need to ask what, if any, difference there is between various weapons. While we're at it, will there be other types of weapons, or would any additional varieties just be abstracted to varieties of the aforementioned? (lance/halberd = spear, maul = axe, etc.)

Finally, will the more flexible armor differ in any way other than being more labor-intensive to make and reducing speed less/not at all? And would speed matter at all for straight-up melee fights, or is it just useful for getting where you want to go and chasing archers around the battlefield?

[Cheddarius]

So, for example, Metalsmithing would need a library?
Can you put that under the technologies that require it?

[Knight Otu]

Probably because I've been playing Fire Emblem, where weapons form a rock/paper/scissors type arrangement, I feel the need to ask what, if any, difference there is between various weapons. While we're at it, will there be other types of weapons, or would any additional varieties just be abstracted to varieties of the aforementioned? (lance/halberd = spear, maul = axe, etc.)

Finally, will the more flexible armor differ in any way other than being more labor-intensive to make and reducing speed less/not at all? And would speed matter at all for straight-up melee fights, or is it just useful for getting where you want to go and chasing archers around the battlefield?

Weapon type will mostly be cosmetic, with Tactics possibly requiring specific weapons (i.e. Cavalry Charge), and polearms giving a bit of reach, but taking an additional wood to create. Flexible armor won't do much more than what I've said, though I should add that armor comes in light and heavy variants, whether flexible or not. Speed, in addition to the tactical applications, will help with retreating from melee, and may help getting a first strike in in absence of other factors.

So, for example, Metalsmithing would need a library?
Can you put that under the technologies that require it?

No, I guess that was unclear language - I meant anything that is further on the tech tree than Engineering or equivalent technologies (and thus eventually have Engineering as a prerequisite). That would be Mechanics and Deep Mining only from the current technologies.

[IronyOwl]

Alright, thanks. I hate to ask more questions, but is there any difference in material/labor cost between heavy and light armor, or is it just a speed vs protection issue?

Speaking of tactics, I sort of assumed they were essentially technologies that opened up a benefit that appropriate military units could spend a year training in to gain access to. Is this correct? Neither of these are necessary for me to get my turn up, I'm just curious for later.

[Knight Otu]

Right, heavy armor costs 1 additional material.

Yes, your impression of tactics is correct.