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[Particleman]

I totally agree that coopering should be a seperate skill. Also, if you want your dwarves to not get a negative thought from sleeping in ther bedrooms, an architect should have to design it first. All sorts of crafting should be divided up by type as well as skill- take a guy, in real life, who's been making wooden cups by hand for the last five years, and tell him to start making wooden amulets, and he's not going to be as good at it. It's stupid for cup making and amulet making to be covered by the same skill.

Further, walking should be a skill. So should eating and drinking (they all require fine motor control.)

[Aachen]

"This is a microcline footprint. All craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality. On the footprint is an image of dwarves traveling. This relates ...."

Walking should be moodable - some might find it imbalancing to get legendary walkers too easily, but it's hard to carry stuff when you're crawling.

Wait! Dwarvish saddlebags!

[Dvergar]

While the dwarves don't have to perfectly mimic the way we, as humans, used to divide our labor, professions should be divided along item-specific lines just as much, if not more than being divided by material lines.

If you were to look at how malleable each furniture material is in a very dumbed down fashion, you would get, from most to least malleable: metal/glass, wood, stone.

You can make blocks (sculpture) out of stone, wood and metal/glass, you can make planks out of wood and metal/glass (furniture), you can cast (any item) with metal/glass.  So a sculptor's skills would be applicable across a "profesion" instead of a material.

[LegoLord]

Cooper - makes Stave and turns them into Barrels, Tubs
Wood Turner - uses a simple Lathe to make strait poles/shafts as well as wooden cups and bowls
Joiner - uses boards and joinery to make cabinetry
Framer - uses large timbers to make the frame of wooden buildings

I don't understand this at all.  These are all forms of woodworking, all of which a general carpenter may learn.  My dad does a whole lot of woodworking, and it ranges from simple tables to wooden pens (like what you write with), bowls, barrels, etc.

Wood turning and joinery in particular sound like splitting a job into a more assembly line-like order.  Any carpenter should be able to use a lathe or join two pieces of wood (even by a number of methods and for a number of applications).  Heck, Industrial Tech Ed I (wood shop, basically; four classes in total) at my school covers all of those except cooperage - and if that's not taken care of in later classes, then it still shouldn't be to hard to include it.

Consider that this is a four-class course - 2-4 years tops (with gaps in between), in which the teacher is teaching multiple students.  Compare this to 1400 era, when it was one teacher constantly teaching a small handful of apprentices.  The 1400 era apprentices should be learning faster, especially considering there wasn't as much to learn.

All that in consideration, why should one dwarf have to spend time into training four different skills when one can cover the job quite accurately.  It's basically unnecessarily splitting hairs.

[neek]

Cooper - makes Stave and turns them into Barrels, Tubs
Wood Turner - uses a simple Lathe to make strait poles/shafts as well as wooden cups and bowls
Joiner - uses boards and joinery to make cabinetry
Framer - uses large timbers to make the frame of wooden buildings

I don't understand this at all.  These are all forms of woodworking, all of which a general carpenter may learn.  My dad does a whole lot of woodworking, and it ranges from simple tables to wooden pens (like what you write with), bowls, barrels, etc.

Wood turning and joinery in particular sound like splitting a job into a more assembly line-like order.  Any carpenter should be able to use a lathe or join two pieces of wood (even by a number of methods and for a number of applications).  Heck, Industrial Tech Ed I (wood shop, basically; four classes in total) at my school covers all of those except cooperage - and if that's not taken care of in later classes, then it still shouldn't be to hard to include it.

Consider that this is a four-class course - 2-4 years tops (with gaps in between), in which the teacher is teaching multiple students.  Compare this to 1400 era, when it was one teacher constantly teaching a small handful of apprentices.  The 1400 era apprentices should be learning faster, especially considering there wasn't as much to learn.

Apprenticeship usually took up to seven years to accomplish in the older times (such as in the 1400s, if not before; modern apprenticeship in Germany lasts about three years, in the UK a little less than 2.) You could say there's less to learn, but that's really not true; you have more access to tools and specialized, mechanized equipment.

It took me a week to learn how to process metal sheets with laser-cut crosses (to be made into necklaces), that is, use a right-angle dye grinder with a stainless steel bristle, punch them out, sand down the ones that a bristle didn't work on; tumble, stamp, polish, ring, thread, and package them all. In an earlier time, were I to have picked up such a craft, the number of prefabricated parts I would no longer have access to would make producing 50,000 pieces in a month's time virtually impossible.

Industrial Tech Ed 1 gives a basic gloss over for all those things previously mentioned--most likely because the number of prefabricated, manufactured pieces of equipment make manufacturing the supplies all the easier to become acquainted with. When you have to learn how to hand sand metal perfectly, well, that took some time. It also takes time to pay back the master, because he probably didn't receive a payment up front, and the number of parts the apprentice wastes or otherwise renders unusuable, and not to mention the pay cut the master loses for taking time out of his work schedule to teach someone the trade... well, it all adds up and has to be paid back, coin for coin. The fact that you have dedicated teachers and people who are payed to give on-the-job training make going into such a field far more efficient than before.

All that in consideration, why should one dwarf have to spend time into training four different skills when one can cover the job quite accurately.  It's basically unnecessarily splitting hairs.

Rather than splitting them, what has been suggested (and I agree with) is that subkills allow cross-skill synergy. Churning out wooden chests will increase carpentry, which will also raise a certain skill that makes making stone, glass, or metal chests--if he's enabled for such working. By creating a tangling web of subskill synergies, you can easily avoid rusting of one skill by focusing on a different material or different side-skill.

To accomplish this, enabling manufacturing skills can be done a little different: Pick a material and a type. This is already done with a 1x4 grid (Crafting: Wood, Bone, Stone, Metal); simply apply it differently. Default the original skills to automatically set the appropriate mats and furniture items (So Masonry will automatically set Chests, Cabinetry, etc., the same as Carpentry). You can then choose to further micromanage your labors easier (this would also be easier if you could enable labor like you can currently chose squad weapons in the military screen.)

The point of it isn't to confuse us, or make us go, "Why is that even a skill!?", but rather allow us more options: Options we can ignore if we choose to. Run out of wood and have a carpenter losing his Legendary status to skill rusting? If he's strong with chests, put him to work making stone chests. He'll instantly have a familiarity and'll gain an XP (or level) boost to the new project.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I simply posted the research I'd done on what the general sub-catagories of woodworking were I'm not taking sides in the debate other then to say "These are the logical sub-divisions to accompany Cooper", the 4 professions I listed were exactly that profession in the the middle ages and it should be clear WHY that was. 

Each works with wood in a different way, the cooper typically bends wood with heat and water and creates a very specialized water-tight shape, the wood turner works with spinning wood to make solid cylindrical forms, the Joiner works with boards and elegantly attaching them at right angles, the Framer deals with very large load-bearing timbers.  Their is practically zero overlap in the way they physically handle, shape, cut, join or design their products.  The only commonality is wood.  The existence of of people called "Carpenters" who had multiple wood related skills either then or now dose not mean their is one true carpentry skill-set interchangeable between all wood based crafts.

[Kilo24]

It would probably be a realistic split.  I don't see it being good for Dwarf Fortress as a game though.  Something that we don't need is another highly-specific skill with only one real use.  Making barrels would only be an even bigger nuisance than it is currently, and so would other wood products (because their resources are competing with the coopers' as well.)

The difference between this suggestion, and, say, Dwarf Fortress's weather or geology systems, is that the complexity is increased in a way that hurts the player (just for accuracy's sake.)  In a large fortress, you'll just have another migrant to train up to legendary (who is also taking up a separate supply of wood); in a small fortress, you'll have to constantly switch someone to coopering or give up another profession to be able to make barrels to store liquids.  If barrels weren't flat-out necessary for a fortress, I'd like this suggestion a bit more, but it'd still not be beneficial to gameplay.

If the skills system changed to not so heavily favor a single legendary dwarf for each production skill (maybe through making legendary less quick to pump out items, or getting skill synergies set up in a way that would make widely skilled dwarves a decent tradeoff to a single highly skilled dwarf) then simply adding more production skills would also be less aversive to me.

[Silverionmox]

Skill gain pace and balance is for later and should be rawified of course.

For the skill parts, 'material', 'procedure' and 'product' would fit the best. Material is obvious, the product part allows eg. a woodworker, a mason and a smith to gain in the same skill when you order them to make eg. cabinets. Procedures are jobs parts: eg. light an oven to the right temperature, stir a pot in the right way, design an image, etc. The dwarves could be made to run back and forth to and from the appropriate furniture in their workshop to simulate them being busy there.

[praguepride]

You use different foot positions when you run versus walk, and there is like NO overlap between the two, therefore if walking is a skill, running should be a skill too

Wood is wood. Stone is stone. Metal is metal. You could say that different masonry should be different, and different metalworkings and different glass working should all be hyper-specialized, but there's no point.

In OUR reality people decided to specialize. In the dwarf fort-verse a wood worker is expected to be able to join/coop/frame/spin/whatever. You don't have coopers, you have a guy who works with wood in a variety of ways all day.

[Pilsu]

The last thing we need is more specialized skills. Bowmaking should be removed as is. Subskills might be more viable

Making cabinets out of stone and metal are nothing like making them out of wood. I have to object to there being a synergy between different materials

[praguepride]

Hell, let's look at the facts. As is, dwarves don't use any tools except for buckets and pickaxes.

Therefore, for all we know the DF way of doing things is to use the power of your mind to mold things into what you want. This would explain why you don't need chisels and fine hammers and other various tools, and why things are grouped the way they are.

Need to make a piece of furniture? Go to the carpenter workshop (i.e. the place optimized to channel carpenter-y psychic energy) and the wood will mold itself into a barrel or bed or bin or armor stand or anything else you need it to be

[neek]

The last thing we need is more specialized skills. Bowmaking should be removed as is. Subskills might be more viable

Making cabinets out of stone and metal are nothing like making them out of wood. I have to object to there being a synergy between different materials

No problem with objecting the obvious . I was trying to find a way to make the OP's idea sound reasonable, that is, allow item subskills to be translated to provide an XP boost to different mats. This wouldn't mean that a Legendary Carpenter with high marks in Coopering could make an ☼Iron Barrel☼, but rather, each time he makes an Iron Barrel, he gains an additional a 5% XP bonus (probably no more). It suggests familiarity with the crafting type, but not enough to break the verisimilitude.

If anything like this does get implemented, it shouldn't overwhelm the new players, and shouldn't confuse the old players. This is why I also suggested that each basic labor covers all appropriate mats and crafts, so you can just set Masonry and not even worry about it.

As for new skills, I'm slightly against the idea of just adding in new ones; I'd rather not see some of the older ones go, either--they're there for a reason. Take Crossbowmaking, which you didn't too well to agree with. I can understand why, however I feel it's better to keep weapon manufacturing separate from furniture manufacturing or craft manufacturing. I'd rather not have to put my barrel makers on hold to churn out a few crossbows, nor do I want to tell my Blacksmith to stop studding items with goblinite so he can raise his skill just to make a few swords. Fewer skills would make micromanaging all the harder, as each dwarf's labor would have a wider scope, but too many would make it difficult. There can be some roll-up, however, like doing something with Lyemaking and Soapmaking (because let's be honest, Lyemaking isn't all too realistic in Dwarf Fortress because it doesn't take into account the alkalinity of the ash being used; any ash will do--but it's a simple task, find a tightly sealed barrel with a tap on the bottom, put rocks and leaves on the bottom of the barrel, fill it with water, let it sit. Drain it, and repeat--"leaching" until you get the right solution. Wow! That was fun! Now watch your hands, you don't want to burn anything.)

But--rather than worry about what requirements are there for a skill to be a skill, we should be trying to figure out how to improve player options, and make things "realistic" (as far as we can suspend them, without making it overly complicated) and overall better for the playing experience.

[The Bismuth]

There can be some roll-up, however, like doing something with Lyemaking and Soapmaking (because let's be honest, Lyemaking isn't all too realistic in Dwarf Fortress because it doesn't take into account the alkalinity of the ash being used; any ash will do--but it's a simple task, find a tightly sealed barrel with a tap on the bottom, put rocks and leaves on the bottom of the barrel, fill it with water, let it sit. Drain it, and repeat--"leaching" until you get the right solution. Wow! That was fun! Now watch your hands, you don't want to burn anything.)

Maybe this is the real point of lye-making skill, basic health and safety. I think there could be some consequences to trying to do something you are bad at. Industrial accidents would be one consequence. Wasting materials and time to botch jobs would be another. A carpenter probably could make a fine looking sturdy barrel which leaks like a sieve. Making mistakes is probably the fastest way for a novice to learn.

The other side of this is that there are some skills that are just not worthwhile taking to legendary level. These include lye making, coopering (unless you want your barrel to be airtight as well) and possibly wood turning. Wasn't there some mention on another thread about trade secrets or somesuch? The idea of having some specialist techniques without skill levels, seems appropriate to me.

By the way, if you are going to add the woodturning skill, you should probably add coppicing too.

[neek]

I'd make a mention about common sense and lyemaking, but we're dealing with Dwarves here.

Of course, we don't get leaky barrels in the game. We never get any shoddy workmanship, just normal and upward for quality purposes. A bad carpenter making bad barrels, used by a bad lyemaker... and suddenly, you have flooded the workshop with lye and one very injured dwarf. This can lead into a lot of fun! I agree that some skills shouldn't go to Legendary, but that doesn't mean it has to be hardcoded. Once skill rusting comes into effect, the entire situation will have possibly resolved itself: You're not going to make as much as lye as you will barrels, for instance.

I think I made mention once of trade secrets... but in a different context. I should probably at some point today talk about that.

[Silverionmox]

You use different foot positions when you run versus walk, and there is like NO overlap between the two, therefore if walking is a skill, running should be a skill too

Running may or may not be sufficiently different from walking (pacing, different muscles used, etc.) to deserve a subskill, yes. Specific skills don't matter now, just whether we should have the option to specify or not.

Wood is wood. Stone is stone. Metal is metal. You could say that different masonry should be different, and different metalworkings and different glass working should all be hyper-specialized, but there's no point.

For those who care about quality there is. You don't need to, but it won't hinder you. And if it does, just set the 'gain skill' difficulty to 'cakewalk'.

In OUR reality people decided to specialize. In the dwarf fort-verse a wood worker is expected to be able to join/coop/frame/spin/whatever. You don't have coopers, you have a guy who works with wood in a variety of ways all day.

It's not a barrier to entry, it's a barrier to become a one-person factory of everything. And as a matter of fact, in my fortresses I do have dedicated carpentry workshops for bins and barrels. You should still able to say: I allow this guy to do all kinds of woodworking with one keypress, instead of scrolling to a list with 543 skills, but that's an interface matter. The subskills idea allows the ones who care to specialize without having coopers that are totally incompetent at other woodworking skills, while other players won't even notice.

The last thing we need is more specialized skills. Bowmaking should be removed as is. Subskills might be more viable

Subskills allow experience to benefit general skills, while still rewarding specialization. Fletcher is a relatively common name, just because making arrows was a common fulltime occupation. Hell, there even were specialized smiths that made arrowheads.

Making cabinets out of stone and metal are nothing like making them out of wood. I have to object to there being a synergy between different materials

Regardless of the material you make goblets/mugs out of, you need to know what is a good shape and size for the handle, what kind of patterns are popular, and that making the foot spherical is a Bad Idea.

It's best to define skills by the product part, so we'd have a raw with a list of procedures. As subskills after it would come a percentage for the material and a percentage for the product.
eg. [skill:cooping][material:40][product:10]
eg. [skill:forging][subskill:heat_metal][subskill:hammer_metal][subskill:quench_metal][material:50][product:10]

In the products raw there could be a list of objects and services, with a list of the required and optional materials and procedures.
eg. [product:barrel][procedure:cooping:wood_any:1][forging:metal_any:1]
eg. [product:pipe][procedure:cooping:wood_any:1][procedure:forging:metal_any:1]

... meaning a barrel is made by applying the skill cooping to wood, producing a barrel. The skill number used to determine the result consists out of 50% of the cooping skill, 40% of the material skill and 10% of the barrel skill. Experience gained is divided in the same proportions.
The same could be done to make a pipe by cooping. That pipe could also be forged. It's possible to subdivide that skill to represent that a given procedure takes more time and effort than others (eg. forging consists out of heating the metal, hammering, etc., all taking place in the workshop), but that kind of detail probably won't be in the vanilla version.