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[Kyran]

Ok, I searched intensively for this in the forum and programming arcs, but I still may've missed it...

Anyway, barrel-making is a very different art than carpentry, and I thought that having a barrel-making profession (cooperage) rather than simply having the carpenter make barrels would be more sensible. The difficulty this introduces in economic management would likely be ameliorated by having greater than 1 barrel per log made, which is also somewhat more realistic.

Really, just a realism tweak that shouldn't effect gameplay much.

[Rowanas]

Wouldn't affect gameplay much?! What, requiring that the making of a common item be an entirely different skill, granting no benefit to the production of any other object wouldn't affect gameplay much? Most carpenters would be dabbling if it weren't for the skill increases granted by making barrels. What you suggest is nothing less than a complete wrecking of the quality of carpenter-made goods.

[Chthonic]

*tsk, tsk*

Now you've riled the Carpenter's Guild.

[G-Flex]

The problem is, this logic probably applies to all kinds of items, not just barrels. After all, making a cage is certainly also different from making a cabinet, which is different from making a hatch-cover, and that's just for carpentry, never mind other materials.

[Soulbourne]

This also raises the idea of specialty crafts, as opposed to general jobs.  Then again, we have the specialty crafts of armor/weaponsmiths.

Barrels do fall under carpentry, and 20 bucks says a half decent general carpenter can make you some barrels if he had the tools in most ages.  The main difference I'd see in jobs would possibly be tools.  If you work with wood enough, you likely have a general idea of how to make most wooden crafts.

[Chthonic]

As far as I'm aware, coopering is a completely separate skill from general carpentry, with its own tools, traditions, and artisans.  I read an article four or five months back about how it's a disappearing trade in Britain because no one wants to be an apprentice barrel-maker for five years.  So the suggestion has that for merit.

It also hits the same general theme as the argument that block-making must be separated from masonry (which has vocal supporters on these forums).  I know that if I didn't have my masons cranking rock blocks, none of them would be highly skilled either.  I'd hardly call that wrecking gameplay . . . it only makes sense.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Yes Cooper is a very different skill set, they also made buckets, tubs, butter-churns and anything made out of 'staves'.  A Stave is a curved piece of wood with a trapezoidal cross-section necessary to form a circular shape when assembled.  Due to the unique shape and the need to apply hoops the Cooper is a very distinct skill set.

Based on my research wood working could be divided into the following skill sets

Cooper - makes Stave and turns them into Barrels, Tubs
Wood Turner - uses a simple Lathe to make strait poles/shafts as well as wooden cups and bowls
Joiner - uses boards and joinery to make cabinetry
Framer - uses large timbers to make the frame of wooden buildings

DF doesn't currently have enough products to support such a skill set yet but it might be viable someday

[Silverionmox]

Not to forget the shipwrights! They would be deeply insulted by trying to shoehorn them in with the coopers .
Woodcarvers are distinct enough to have their own category too: mainly for smal statuettes and carving into existing carpentry items.
To be really complete, bowyers and fletchers. Mechanics and the like would merely assemble the parts made by appropriate woodworkers and other artisans.

[Foehamster]

because no one wants to be an apprentice barrel-maker for five years.

Who would?
That's not the only trade that needs to have apprenticeship redesigned, especially since you can get a degree in 4 years.

Arbitrary servitude periods (apprentices make much less than the artisans) made sense when they would take in 7-12 year old boys who they would house, feed, clothe and raise in addition to teaching a tradeskill. Not so when a competent adult is ready to learn.

[Impaler[WrG]]

If boats and/or wagons could actually be built I would indeed like to see shipwright and wainwright as skills of their own.

[Rafal99]

What we need is more skill synergy and sub-skills.
We don't need more skills in the current system. There is enough skills that are used only in one rarely used activity, like Lye Maker for example.
I don't want this to end with barrel-maker, bucket-maker, bin-maker, bed-maker skills etc.
Better solution would be affinity with specified item type, which will not clutter the profesion list, and that could be used in different profesions, like for example with both wood and stone crafting of amulets.

Ps. I am tired, my English is probably bad, and I may make no sense. 

[snus-mumrik]

What we need is more skill synergy and sub-skills.

Absolutely!
I've seen lots of threads that start with some proposal on skills and then end up with "We need skill synergy". But there are few threads that actually discuss it.

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=49774.0 - this one has something close, but is mostly intended for anti-grinding (i.e. how to make it impossible to train a master carpenter by making barrels  ).

http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=26498.0 - this one is on synergy, but it is very old.

Are there any active discussions on skill synergy?! Or maybe there is a reason why there are none?

[DDR]

Well, could be that we have carpenter, which is a superset of cooper, bed-maker, bucketeer, ect. When making a wooden item, you gain n skill points to carpentry, and 3n skill points in the subcategory. Carpentry implies the sub-catagory, but the sub category does not imply carpentry. ie, urist mcCarpenter makes 2000 wooden idols. N is set to '10' for idols. Therefore, he is a carpenter worth 20k experience points (say, master carpenter), and can make a bed, shelf, wardrobe, bin, etc. masterfully. However, he has 60k experience in the 'idol' catagory, and can make masterful idols.

It's probably too confusing/not enough work to be implemented, though.

[praguepride]

Sounds very complicated just to give coopers their own skill set. I'm sure if you talk to a guy who builds stone walls vs. guys who build stone doors that they'd be very upset to be lumped together blah blah blah.

We live in a highly specialized world where every possible job has their own history/tools/guild/union whatever.

But let's take a step back to a more historical view. In a town with a dozen people in it, what's the likelihood of having someone who can ONLY make barrels vs. that guy who makes everything with wood.

[Silverionmox]

... Where do you think the names cooper, chandler, cordwainer, etc. come from? A barrel needs to be watertight, not just a little bit, but all the way. So people specialize. Skill is about the only way to improve quality when you don't have lots of cheap energy available. Initially there will be a lot of generalists, but as your fortress grows you'll want to specialize because otherwise your dwarfs will stay around mediocre in a lot of skills, while you're better off with dwarves excel in a few skills.